500+BHP Nitrous Griff at Austec open day
Discussion
'TVR Power' Co-developed Griff 5.3 Nos 'A Bitch with a Twitch'
Thanx to all at Austec for Thursday afternoon/evening and Sunday 19th open day on the rolling road.
Griffith 530 Nos - Reg: '500 TVR'
Without Nos:
Flywheel = 385BHP 390lbs Torque
Wheels = 331BHP 337lbs Torque
With Nos:
Flywheel = 525BHP 532lbs Torque - aprox
Wheels = 451BHP 441lbs Torque - aprox
We graphed the first set of figs and if somebody can tell me how to put the jpeg up on here i can publish them? (Put one under my profile if that helps?)
The Nos figs are taken from the realtime session as the Griff broke traction, i do have slightly lower figs graphed if anyone’s interested?
THE CONCEPT
To create a Griff with the purest Power to Plant ratio, utilising the latest technology and a wealth of expertise and knowledge in automotive engineering. To exceed 500BHP 500lbs TRQ with progressive delivery and total drivability - it would appear we got there!
THANX TO ALL ON THIS PROJECT
My heartfelt thanks to all involved in this project, it far exceeded my original expectations, not to mention my budget!
A special thanx to Jamie and Dom at TVR Power for all the phone calls and advice, initial and ongoing development plans and undying enthusiasm - i couldn’t have spent the money without them!
My thanx to Mark Adams for his wealth of knowledge, and his astonishing software and mapping results, not to mention the unlimited late night phone conversations.
To Tim Lamont of ACT for his attention to detail and utter enthusiasm in everything he creates and does, good luck to all out there with downdraft aspirations we’ve got Tim's Plenums.
To John Eales the Master builder of solid short blocks, for strength, power and peace of mind.
To Craig of Racers Edge the provider of all things 'Nos', and the giver of much advice and good prices!
To Greg Lunn of Newlunn Design an artist in Carbon and Glass, paint jobs to die for and tons of radical ideas.
To Paul 'Big and Small' at Austec Racing, for his total injection of enthusiasm and expertise, and to those who say men cant multitask take a look at the number of brooms up his A***!
If i've left anyone out it's cause it's 4AM! So thanx to all others, much advice was provided by many in the TVR circles at no benefit to themselves, they are not forgotten but too many to mention, so thanx guys!
Build as follows;
TVR Power: Jamie and Dom
Engine strip and rebuild fully balanced and blueprinted
Ported/Gasflowed/Wired heads
Prototype Cam DDHS (Dom Dark Horse Special)
Solid Lifters
Roller rockers (oh how pretty they are)
T5 Gearbox Overhaul
Ancillary polishing etc
Nos fitment and set up (Absolute work of art)
And many more of Jamie’s trick items, too many to list!
J.E.Developments: John Eales
5.3 Short Block
Forged Crank/Pistons/Rods
Balanced and crossbolted etc
ACT Performance Products: Tim Lamont
Triple Plenum Induction System
Prototype JP Stainless Headers & Exhaust
Ancillary Hoses and various other goodies
Mark Adams
Tornado Chip
Omex Mapping System
Magnecor Leads
Electronic controlled Fans
Mark 'Merlin' Adams - Rolling road mapping
Racers Edge (The people behind the Purple Cerbera): Craig
Supply of the Nos Progressive System
And many other goodies and advice!
Newlunn Design: Greg Lunn
Prototype Griff Bonnet
And other body mods yet to be fitted!
Prototype Ali Rad and Oil Cooler (courtesy Dave)
Austec Racing: Paul & ickle Paul & Co
Rolling road magician
Electrical work and Stainless Welding
Dash remodeling (Paul's special touch)
Rear Diff dynamics
Provider of Non Egg 16" Rear Wheel
Brakes and set up to be decided
Nitron: Guy Evans
Nitron Shocks
Many hours of set up and assistance
Power Engineering: Chris Todd & Co
Safety Nos tuning and Electrical assistance
Truly the 'Wizard of Nos'
So there you have it, not everything is listed (got to keep some surprises for the road), but you get the idea.
There is a rumor I may be on a few track days, so if you fancy a blat?
Jamie and I are thinking of the TVRcc Challenge for next year so watch this space!
Cheers
Griffany
Thanx to all at Austec for Thursday afternoon/evening and Sunday 19th open day on the rolling road.
Griffith 530 Nos - Reg: '500 TVR'
Without Nos:
Flywheel = 385BHP 390lbs Torque
Wheels = 331BHP 337lbs Torque
With Nos:
Flywheel = 525BHP 532lbs Torque - aprox
Wheels = 451BHP 441lbs Torque - aprox
We graphed the first set of figs and if somebody can tell me how to put the jpeg up on here i can publish them? (Put one under my profile if that helps?)
The Nos figs are taken from the realtime session as the Griff broke traction, i do have slightly lower figs graphed if anyone’s interested?
THE CONCEPT
To create a Griff with the purest Power to Plant ratio, utilising the latest technology and a wealth of expertise and knowledge in automotive engineering. To exceed 500BHP 500lbs TRQ with progressive delivery and total drivability - it would appear we got there!
THANX TO ALL ON THIS PROJECT
My heartfelt thanks to all involved in this project, it far exceeded my original expectations, not to mention my budget!
A special thanx to Jamie and Dom at TVR Power for all the phone calls and advice, initial and ongoing development plans and undying enthusiasm - i couldn’t have spent the money without them!
My thanx to Mark Adams for his wealth of knowledge, and his astonishing software and mapping results, not to mention the unlimited late night phone conversations.
To Tim Lamont of ACT for his attention to detail and utter enthusiasm in everything he creates and does, good luck to all out there with downdraft aspirations we’ve got Tim's Plenums.
To John Eales the Master builder of solid short blocks, for strength, power and peace of mind.
To Craig of Racers Edge the provider of all things 'Nos', and the giver of much advice and good prices!
To Greg Lunn of Newlunn Design an artist in Carbon and Glass, paint jobs to die for and tons of radical ideas.
To Paul 'Big and Small' at Austec Racing, for his total injection of enthusiasm and expertise, and to those who say men cant multitask take a look at the number of brooms up his A***!
If i've left anyone out it's cause it's 4AM! So thanx to all others, much advice was provided by many in the TVR circles at no benefit to themselves, they are not forgotten but too many to mention, so thanx guys!
Build as follows;
TVR Power: Jamie and Dom
Engine strip and rebuild fully balanced and blueprinted
Ported/Gasflowed/Wired heads
Prototype Cam DDHS (Dom Dark Horse Special)
Solid Lifters
Roller rockers (oh how pretty they are)
T5 Gearbox Overhaul
Ancillary polishing etc
Nos fitment and set up (Absolute work of art)
And many more of Jamie’s trick items, too many to list!
J.E.Developments: John Eales
5.3 Short Block
Forged Crank/Pistons/Rods
Balanced and crossbolted etc
ACT Performance Products: Tim Lamont
Triple Plenum Induction System
Prototype JP Stainless Headers & Exhaust
Ancillary Hoses and various other goodies
Mark Adams
Tornado Chip
Omex Mapping System
Magnecor Leads
Electronic controlled Fans
Mark 'Merlin' Adams - Rolling road mapping
Racers Edge (The people behind the Purple Cerbera): Craig
Supply of the Nos Progressive System
And many other goodies and advice!
Newlunn Design: Greg Lunn
Prototype Griff Bonnet
And other body mods yet to be fitted!
Prototype Ali Rad and Oil Cooler (courtesy Dave)
Austec Racing: Paul & ickle Paul & Co
Rolling road magician
Electrical work and Stainless Welding
Dash remodeling (Paul's special touch)
Rear Diff dynamics
Provider of Non Egg 16" Rear Wheel
Brakes and set up to be decided
Nitron: Guy Evans
Nitron Shocks
Many hours of set up and assistance
Power Engineering: Chris Todd & Co
Safety Nos tuning and Electrical assistance
Truly the 'Wizard of Nos'
So there you have it, not everything is listed (got to keep some surprises for the road), but you get the idea.
There is a rumor I may be on a few track days, so if you fancy a blat?
Jamie and I are thinking of the TVRcc Challenge for next year so watch this space!
Cheers
Griffany
Nice one, Dave. I'm glad you are happy with the results! Not only do YOU benefit, but it gives others the confidence to open their wallets and part with their own hard earned safe in the knowledge that the mods DO work, and power and torque WILL be gained.
I for one am now thinking about the OMEX as Mark now seems to think it is worth additional peak power (as much as 25bhp) as well as thinkening out the graphs either side of peak (as previously thought). I believe is made about this amount of difference on yours.
I for one am now thinking about the OMEX as Mark now seems to think it is worth additional peak power (as much as 25bhp) as well as thinkening out the graphs either side of peak (as previously thought). I believe is made about this amount of difference on yours.
The greatest achievement was getting a near 390bhp engine to run smoother than the original car in traffic.
I think the Omex ignition benefits torque more than bhp , when David turned up with a very basic fuel map it made over 350bhp so it's hard to tell how much of the increase was down to Fuel adjustments alone.
The Omex does work very well though.
Tim
I think the Omex ignition benefits torque more than bhp , when David turned up with a very basic fuel map it made over 350bhp so it's hard to tell how much of the increase was down to Fuel adjustments alone.
The Omex does work very well though.
Tim
2 sheds said:
The greatest achievement was getting a near 390bhp engine to run smoother than the original car in traffic.
I think the Omex ignition benefits torque more than bhp , when David turned up with a very basic fuel map it made over 350bhp so it's hard to tell how much of the increase was down to Fuel adjustments alone.
The Omex does work very well though.
Tim
I am very keen to get to the bottom of this. I understood from Mark that there was definitely 25bhp attributible to the Omex alone. This was on the basis that it was set up properly on the original ignition, and gave 350bhp, the set up on the Omex and gave 375. Now you are saying it wasn't properly set up on the std ignition.
Which is it please, as I'm getting a little tired o people 'in the know' saying if you do this, you'll get that, and then I find out I get 'that'/2.
Sorry if i'm causing confusion, just trying to give you as much info as poss and i'm not trying to despute what Mark has said, although it could read as that. basically it turned up with 353 or within a bhp of that, it was running a very basic map, only Mark can tell you what he actually did to get the end figure,
I'll speak to Paul & Mark
the important thing is that the OMEX made a big difference, i can't imagine you would be disappointed.
he said with his neck firmly stuck out.
Tim
I'll speak to Paul & Mark
the important thing is that the OMEX made a big difference, i can't imagine you would be disappointed.
he said with his neck firmly stuck out.
Tim
believe that the Omex is good for filling the graph not topping it.
max figures are due to air/fuel mix, with the moving of the spark giving max thru the rev range.
as Tim suggested
not sure how a spark can give you 25bhp unless the ignition was off peak.
VERY nice BTW Griffany
>> Edited by Guillotine on Monday 20th September 20:21
max figures are due to air/fuel mix, with the moving of the spark giving max thru the rev range.
as Tim suggested
not sure how a spark can give you 25bhp unless the ignition was off peak. VERY nice BTW Griffany
>> Edited by Guillotine on Monday 20th September 20:21
I think that with timing from a clockwork dizzy, if you get pinking at any point in the rev range you have to back the timing off everywhere to cure it. This means you can't necessarily get the optimum timing at peak power. With mapped ignition, you can optimise the ignition at each point so you don't have this compromise.
This is my understanding of how it all works. I would welcome any corrections if I've got it wrong.
There are 4 variables - engine speed, air volume, fuel volume and ignition timing (since we don't have variable valve timing or compression - don't laugh, it's being developed!) We'll ignore engine temp, air temp. etc. for now.
The engine speed is a known 1000 - 6000ish on a running engine. The amount of air volume at any revs is purely a function of how planted your right foot is at the time (PLANTED on a rolling road) and therefore can not easily be varied for a given engine speed, so we can treat that as a constant.
The dizzy will advance a certain number of degrees between tickover and max revs. The engine speed at which it starts to advance and the speed when it finishes advancing (along with the amount of advance) is not be adjustable without modifying the dizzy. (Could someone please tell me the start revs, end revs and amount of advance, please?) Therefore once the dissy is set, we can predict the ignition timing for any given engine speed and so is also a constant.
Ideally you would set the dizzy so that it is giving the correct advance at peak power to burn all the fuel / air mix efficiently to maximize the peak power. However, this may not be possible, if in so doing it is causing leanness at the top end (pinking) due to insufficient fuel available for the amount of advance, or too lean (more likely too rich) at the bottom end (needs more advance). This can be dialled out by Mark on the Tornado chip by changing the fuel volume at any given engine speed, but only within the confines of what the injectors are capable of.
This means that you may not be able to set the advance to the correct setting at peak, thus reducing the amount of peak power available.
Even if you can achieve this, as you have no control over the advance at any other point in the rev range (for reasons stated above) you have to vary the fuel to suit the air and the advance at any particular point. So you may well be reducing fuel to match too little advance rather than advancing the ignition to match the fuel available.
In summary I can see how you can thicken out the curve either side of peak (as stated by Guillotine AND Mark Adams when all three of us were at Mech Repairs with Tiny) with the Omex more likely at less revs that peak power rather than more, and possibly produce a bit more peak if you can't set the advance spot on due to problems created either at the top of bottom of the rev range by so doing, but I struggle to see how 25 horses can be found at peak purely with the Omex. I would estimate the timing would need to be out by about 3 or 4 degrees at peak to make that much difference.
I think it's more likely that more effort was spent extracting the max from the Omex than with the std ignition. In other words, perhaps up to 365bhp could have been found on std set up had Mark spent the time doing it. I understand David's engine was running very rich at the bottom end, for instance.
I appreciate the reasons why he didn't (it wasn't necessary as the Omex was there) but this was not made clear to me by Mark when I spoke to him on Friday. I was led to believe 350 odd was after a full set up on std ignition.
If you're reading Mark, perhaps you could clarify this, as if I am wrong, you have a very good sales opportunity for the Omex if you firmly believe 25bhp can be found.
There are 4 variables - engine speed, air volume, fuel volume and ignition timing (since we don't have variable valve timing or compression - don't laugh, it's being developed!) We'll ignore engine temp, air temp. etc. for now.
The engine speed is a known 1000 - 6000ish on a running engine. The amount of air volume at any revs is purely a function of how planted your right foot is at the time (PLANTED on a rolling road) and therefore can not easily be varied for a given engine speed, so we can treat that as a constant.
The dizzy will advance a certain number of degrees between tickover and max revs. The engine speed at which it starts to advance and the speed when it finishes advancing (along with the amount of advance) is not be adjustable without modifying the dizzy. (Could someone please tell me the start revs, end revs and amount of advance, please?) Therefore once the dissy is set, we can predict the ignition timing for any given engine speed and so is also a constant.
Ideally you would set the dizzy so that it is giving the correct advance at peak power to burn all the fuel / air mix efficiently to maximize the peak power. However, this may not be possible, if in so doing it is causing leanness at the top end (pinking) due to insufficient fuel available for the amount of advance, or too lean (more likely too rich) at the bottom end (needs more advance). This can be dialled out by Mark on the Tornado chip by changing the fuel volume at any given engine speed, but only within the confines of what the injectors are capable of.
This means that you may not be able to set the advance to the correct setting at peak, thus reducing the amount of peak power available.
Even if you can achieve this, as you have no control over the advance at any other point in the rev range (for reasons stated above) you have to vary the fuel to suit the air and the advance at any particular point. So you may well be reducing fuel to match too little advance rather than advancing the ignition to match the fuel available.
In summary I can see how you can thicken out the curve either side of peak (as stated by Guillotine AND Mark Adams when all three of us were at Mech Repairs with Tiny) with the Omex more likely at less revs that peak power rather than more, and possibly produce a bit more peak if you can't set the advance spot on due to problems created either at the top of bottom of the rev range by so doing, but I struggle to see how 25 horses can be found at peak purely with the Omex. I would estimate the timing would need to be out by about 3 or 4 degrees at peak to make that much difference.
I think it's more likely that more effort was spent extracting the max from the Omex than with the std ignition. In other words, perhaps up to 365bhp could have been found on std set up had Mark spent the time doing it. I understand David's engine was running very rich at the bottom end, for instance.
I appreciate the reasons why he didn't (it wasn't necessary as the Omex was there) but this was not made clear to me by Mark when I spoke to him on Friday. I was led to believe 350 odd was after a full set up on std ignition.
If you're reading Mark, perhaps you could clarify this, as if I am wrong, you have a very good sales opportunity for the Omex if you firmly believe 25bhp can be found.
Taraka 001 said:
Glad that you are happy with the end result David, but.....just 2 things...
1)I want to do another one (it was fun), and 2)I think we can reach the 400+ BHP figure's quite easily!
Any Takers?
Have Fun
Jamie
I would be interested in how you think that would be possible. (Not that I'm considering it, you understand!)
400 bhp seems so close doesn't it, i would love to try a bigger bore inlet trunk feeding the AFM, not that it would fit easily within the confines of the engine bay but just to see if the restriction is before the meter, although the inlet manifold is likely to be very close to the limit.
Tim
Tim
ncs said:
Dave
That is one awesome car you have there, everyone has done a brilliant job. The rolling road took a bashing yesterday with your car & Martins twin turdo Griff.
Look forward to seeing (& hearing) you at Cardiff.
Nick
Thanx Nick,
It's the 'hearing me' im worried about, off to Ray and Pauleen's on Friday to check my noise level for Pembery, not much good though if you have to stifle the BHP with rear cans etc
watch this space Griffany
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