996GT3 vs 964RS vs 993RS
Discussion
By all accounts these are all fantastic cars to drive, but which is the best investment? (To the extent that any car is!)
RSs, and particularly 964RSs, seem hugely overpriced, being valued as collectors' items rather than cars to be driven. This seems pretty silly since their special status comes from the fact that they are enjoyable to drive!
Is the 996 GT3 a better investment for a car to drive on track? (H&S have a clubsport at just over £40k), or is it just not as good as the others?
Finally, don't you have to be a bit mad to drive a £40k+ car around a track?
RSs, and particularly 964RSs, seem hugely overpriced, being valued as collectors' items rather than cars to be driven. This seems pretty silly since their special status comes from the fact that they are enjoyable to drive!
Is the 996 GT3 a better investment for a car to drive on track? (H&S have a clubsport at just over £40k), or is it just not as good as the others?
Finally, don't you have to be a bit mad to drive a £40k+ car around a track?
I think your point about driving a 40 grand car around the track is valid. I've had my 30 grand Boxster S on the track 3 times now and I do cringe a bit when it slides or if I make a mistake. It really comes down to how much of the folded you have.
In terms of investment potential for the cars you mention:
996 GT3 still has depreciation left to go, even the earliest ones. The early Mk 1 cars might bottom out in say 2 years at about 44 grand for a RHD car, then we may see their value harden again.
The 993 RS and 964 RS have had steady values for a while now. The 964 RS in particular bottomed out a few years ago, then the values went up when interest in track days in the UK grew. For what it's worth, I think the value of these cars will remain static.
In terms of investment potential for the cars you mention:
996 GT3 still has depreciation left to go, even the earliest ones. The early Mk 1 cars might bottom out in say 2 years at about 44 grand for a RHD car, then we may see their value harden again.
The 993 RS and 964 RS have had steady values for a while now. The 964 RS in particular bottomed out a few years ago, then the values went up when interest in track days in the UK grew. For what it's worth, I think the value of these cars will remain static.
As you have mentioned no car is an investment really but in terms of driving, I would rate them as follows:-
Not done in any specific order of merit.....
1] 996 GT3 Mk1 = modern useable everyday car, with good capability to do track days. [I owned one]
RHD now c£55k+- LHD now c£49k+- Still more depreciation to come based on mileage not really on age.
2] 993 RS = old fashioned car, softer than a 964, more useable daily but still not a 996 for everyday. Great manners on track. [never owned one]
RHD now c£60k+- LHD now c£44k+- probably settled at these prices now. RHD may still fall a little.
3] 964RS = old fashioned and crude as a daily drive but so sharp and focussed on track. Only a 2.7RS or 3.0RSR can compare in terms of driving experience. It's not for the feint hearted, it will bite you if you dont drive it smoothly and precisely. [I own one]
RHD now c£40k+- not as nice a driving position. LHD now c£32k+-. Prices can only get higher as cars change hands less, supply & demand. The myth that is 964RS.
The car least likely to lose money and the one which costs the least to buy, own & insure is the 964RS.
Not biased just my opinion as both an owner and a dealer
Allan
happy hunting
Not done in any specific order of merit.....
1] 996 GT3 Mk1 = modern useable everyday car, with good capability to do track days. [I owned one]
RHD now c£55k+- LHD now c£49k+- Still more depreciation to come based on mileage not really on age.
2] 993 RS = old fashioned car, softer than a 964, more useable daily but still not a 996 for everyday. Great manners on track. [never owned one]
RHD now c£60k+- LHD now c£44k+- probably settled at these prices now. RHD may still fall a little.
3] 964RS = old fashioned and crude as a daily drive but so sharp and focussed on track. Only a 2.7RS or 3.0RSR can compare in terms of driving experience. It's not for the feint hearted, it will bite you if you dont drive it smoothly and precisely. [I own one]
RHD now c£40k+- not as nice a driving position. LHD now c£32k+-. Prices can only get higher as cars change hands less, supply & demand. The myth that is 964RS.
The car least likely to lose money and the one which costs the least to buy, own & insure is the 964RS.
Not biased just my opinion as both an owner and a dealer
Allan
happy hunting
RAH said:
Do the values of these cars reflect their rarity and "aura"? or the driving experience?
All the above really, although you can build a near replica to give a very similar driving experience for a fraction of the cost, but it will be worth a lot less as its not the real thing.
Ref tracking a £40k car, some sessions on PCGB days it can seem like there is nothing worth that little on track only double or 3 times that! : dribble :
You have to consider that if you have an off on a track day you will do some damage..If you think you are going to totally write one off then you probably shouldn't be on the track!
If you have a knock you may do a % of the cars value in damage, not it's whole worth...that is my theory anyhow
If you have a knock you may do a % of the cars value in damage, not it's whole worth...that is my theory anyhow
hey RAH, what are you after ? Investment ? Car for track ? These are not compatible objectives.
All the cars you list are track oriented Porsches , the least expensive to own will be a battle scarred LHD 964RS, however a well used 3.2 Clubsport should be cheaper still ( low 20s) and probably hold its value at least as well. The cheapest track Porsches are not 911s, think 924 , 944 , 968.... cheap to buy and to modify , more user friendly on track , but will not scratch the itch like a 911.
Here's the mindset I recommend. Imagine you have £62 k to spend on a new 996/997. Its fast and shiny , after 3 years use and 30 k miles your friendly dealer will maybe buy it back for £32 k , or maybe allow £35k on a trade-in for a new one. Jeez , instead of dropping 30k on a badged motorway cruiser, you could have got the iconic 964RS , say that nice red one that Scutty is selling for around 30k, got track day insurance if you are of a nervous disposition, driven it like it was made for , 3 years use , then sold it for not a lot less than you paid... then moved on to a 996 GT3 Mk1 for not a lot more than you got back for the 964RS.
All the cars you list are track oriented Porsches , the least expensive to own will be a battle scarred LHD 964RS, however a well used 3.2 Clubsport should be cheaper still ( low 20s) and probably hold its value at least as well. The cheapest track Porsches are not 911s, think 924 , 944 , 968.... cheap to buy and to modify , more user friendly on track , but will not scratch the itch like a 911.
Here's the mindset I recommend. Imagine you have £62 k to spend on a new 996/997. Its fast and shiny , after 3 years use and 30 k miles your friendly dealer will maybe buy it back for £32 k , or maybe allow £35k on a trade-in for a new one. Jeez , instead of dropping 30k on a badged motorway cruiser, you could have got the iconic 964RS , say that nice red one that Scutty is selling for around 30k, got track day insurance if you are of a nervous disposition, driven it like it was made for , 3 years use , then sold it for not a lot less than you paid... then moved on to a 996 GT3 Mk1 for not a lot more than you got back for the 964RS.
If you want an investment I'm not convince cars are the best vehicle for this.
As for trackday cars the best bet is to hire whatever you're thinking of buying at a trackday first. I hired a Caterham and it wasn't for me. Try before you buy.
To be honest there is no such thing as a cheap trackday car. Most of the cheap hatches et al are frankly crap - they are OK if you want to spend all day being passed. If you want something quick you'll need to spend, and then spend to keep it fit.
As for damage; Trackdays are like Russian roulette - you will eventually do either mechanical or bodywork damage. Trackcars are sold with this damage factored into the price whereas an ordinary road car takes a bigger depreciation hit.
As for trackday cars the best bet is to hire whatever you're thinking of buying at a trackday first. I hired a Caterham and it wasn't for me. Try before you buy.
To be honest there is no such thing as a cheap trackday car. Most of the cheap hatches et al are frankly crap - they are OK if you want to spend all day being passed. If you want something quick you'll need to spend, and then spend to keep it fit.
As for damage; Trackdays are like Russian roulette - you will eventually do either mechanical or bodywork damage. Trackcars are sold with this damage factored into the price whereas an ordinary road car takes a bigger depreciation hit.
Ive got a GT3 Mk1 and cant recommend it highly enough.
I did test a 964 Rs an have had several drives in 993rs's too, but was overwhelmed by the gt3 as it felt like a racer through and through, but also felt alot safer, has a warranty, and as far as I could tell was quicker on the track too.
I did test a 964 Rs an have had several drives in 993rs's too, but was overwhelmed by the gt3 as it felt like a racer through and through, but also felt alot safer, has a warranty, and as far as I could tell was quicker on the track too.
I agree with Piers that the 993RS is probably the most desirable of the three in the future (as a car, from an objective point of view), but if market values have been driven by the hardcore track factor, maybe the 964RS will beat them all? To think it is worth almost twice what it was 5 years ago is pretty daft.
To be honest, all three cars will hold their value or appreciate modestly. The real losers, sadly, are some of the other Porsches that cost more at the time and are now worth much less.
To be honest, all three cars will hold their value or appreciate modestly. The real losers, sadly, are some of the other Porsches that cost more at the time and are now worth much less.
tony.t said:
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To be honest there is no such thing as a cheap trackday car. Most of the cheap hatches et al are frankly crap - they are OK if you want to spend all day being passed.
Off topic excursion-
Tony.t agree with all you said in yr last post except this bit.
There is a world of difference between Kev in his Mcdonalds posing Nova/Saxo etc & a very properly sorted & built track slag hatch.
Even a mildly fettled original engined & stripped track slag Golf/Pug/Clio etc can have a similar power to weight ratio of over 200bhp/tonne so above an E30M3, Box S or 968Cs for example & can be set up to handle extremily well & is capable of giving all those listed above a very very hard time & put up with proper track abuse for say £3-4k area.
And slow- well the only car to beat a properly sorted Golf at the Bedford-Palmer how fast can you go comp was an R500, lots of porkers tried- 964RS, 993RS GT3, 996T (with Tiff Needell at the helm) yet they were all whooped, you could build a similar spec car for sub £10k area.
So putting aside the whole FWD being easy vs RWD being more fun & challenging issue which I won't argue with you at all & agree with entirely.
RS Porkers are devine creatures that beg to be tracked & I'd give my left nacker to have a 993RS as my track bitch- as long as I could have a Caterham too
However not everyone has Bill Gates type budgets & cheap hatches they can be a lot of fun & suprisingly fast for a very little budget.
Just thought- in case anyone sees me out on track in my budget hack & as they lap me wonders why im not as quick as ive said some hatches can be, well-
1- Driver ineptness
2- A lot less power
3- More weight
4- Very tight budget set up
5- See number 1 again
Off topic excursion ends-
>> Edited by iguana on Wednesday 22 September 15:01
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