Soreness - among other things

[Otispunkmeyer]

Why am I getting so sore from gym work?

I will refrain from calling it DOMS as I believe (from what little I have read) that DOMS is particularly painful... but what do I know.

Currently what happens is I gym, then next morning I feel sore/stiff. Morning after that I feel even worse. By the second morning I have also usually been in the pool for a training session as well (which isn't fun because my arms are shagged). I would of thought that the swimming would stretch things out and un-tighten me. But I think it makes it worse!

This week I went to the gym on tuesday morning. I swam wednesday night (in a freezing cold pool due to broken boilers) and felt rough. I couldn't get to the gym again during the week, but went swimming on friday evening. This is 3 days after the gym and I actually had to stop within 200m because the pain in the muscles (top of lat/just under arm pit/muscles that bridge lat/shoulder) was agony. I couldn't physically apply any power to the stroke. A few minutes rest/stretching sorted it in the end.

I do mainly swimming related exercises in the gym one of which is the wide grip pull up. This is my other beef... I can manage 3 x 6 good pull ups (all the way up, all the way down). I then do a few sets of just the downward bit (was told doing this will help with increasing the amount of pull ups I can do and is suggested for people who can't even do one pull up).

I also do squat and at the moment I am stuck at the bar + 40 kg. But get very little soreness from this. Like I could and should be squatting more. But I just can't seem to do it, or at least it feels like I can't. I don't feel worked after squats even though I know with more weight on the bar, I'd go down and never come back up.

So in short for those who go TL;DR:

1) Why am I getting so stiff and sore up to 3 days after the gym ?
2) Why am I so st at pull ups and why don't I seem to be improving (have been on 3 x 6 for months)?
3) Why am I so st at squats? how can I get better? Should I do leg press to get stronger first?


I am 6 ft 3. Long legs, long arms, 75 kg or there abouts. Should I be stretching or cooling down on a cross trainer or something to prevent the pain? Not new to weight training but definitely never been taught anything about it. When I was swimming proper, gym work for teenagers (at our club) was sorta the new thing to try. Even later on the uni squad, weight training wasn't a major feature ... more core/boxercise/circuit training instead. But now weight training is becoming more prominent, especially for the sprinters.

[_bryan_]

What kind of reps and sets are you doing with the squats? And what kind of squats high or low bar?

I was new to squats before January. Started with an empty bar (20kg), then using the stronglifts routine and adding 7.5kg every week will be squatting 75kg tomorrow.

[Willy Nilly]

Are you warming up an cooling down properly? Sounds like lactic acid making you sore to me.

[goldblum]

Otispunkmeyer said:

1) Why am I getting so stiff and sore up to 3 days after the gym ?

DOMS

Otispunkmeyer said:

2) Why am I so st at pull ups and why don't I seem to be improving (have been on 3 x 6 for months)?

Because you don't know what you're supposed to be doing.

Otispunkmeyer said:

3) Why am I so st at squats? how can I get better? Should I do leg press to get stronger first?

See answer 2). Also NO to leg press first.

You have not exactly been gifted the ideal weightlifters levers. Long arms means more distance to pull up on the um..pullups. Legs the same but with pushing.
Them's the breaks I'm afraid. If you're determined to crack on then find someone who knows about weight training to teach you. You may well have to pay them though.
On the other hand you could be a good runner, boxer, hurdler etc... .

[Hoofy]

Re the pull ups, after doing your 3x6, do another (ie a 7th) as much as you can (ie if it's not perfect so be it). Eventually, you'll be able to do 3x7. (Can you do 7 on the first set?)

[Xerstead]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Why am I getting so sore from gym work?

I then do a few sets of just the downward bit.

That would be one of the reasons
Working the negative motion is more likely to cause the soreness. Make sure you warm up properly first. Your body should get used to it, I dont get it as badly as when I started last year. It's never been too bad with my upper body, but the first time I hit my legs hard I could feel it for four days Training on Wednesday, stairs were still painfull on saturday night.

As for getting stuck on weights, how many reps and sets of each exercise are you doing and how many times per week? For Squats, 5-10 reps for 3-4 sets twice per week would be a good starting point. You should have the weight heavy enough to only just manage to push out the last rep. Get someone who knows what they are doing to check your form/technique, it's easy to injure yourself.

[Hoofy]

I often hear people don't get so sore once they train regularly and that soreness is not a sign of a good workout. Not disagreeing with this as I noticed that once I was climbing frequently, I wouldn't ache much the next day but why are my lats aching from Friday's gym/cali session? (Did lots of hanging work including weighted pull ups.)

[Otispunkmeyer]

Willy Nilly said:

Are you warming up an cooling down properly? Sounds like lactic acid making you sore to me.

Warm up yes... cool down, well not always. Sometimes stretch off in the shower. Usually walk to/from the gym so pretty warm by the time I get there. Some time on a cross trainer on highish load gets me warmed through.

Bryan...I think I try to go for low bar, but it does end up migrating to the traps because it gets uncomfortable to hold in the low position sometimes. I need to remember to wear a t-shirt and not a vest.

Goldblum... what do you mean by don't know what I am supposed to be doing? You mean like not knowing how many I should be able to do? I think my technique is fine, no jerky movement, keep the body straight and no hitching up of the legs to help the last few cm. Just straight up, straight down. You do have to fight a little to keep the body straight.

I hate running, though I think if I persevered with it I would be ok at non-sprinty running. I am a swimmer, my knees say no to running. I think I have an odd combination because my body is clearly that of a distance runner/swimmer. Yet, even when I used to do 60 km + a week in the pool I was never much of a distance/middle distance swimmer. My sprint would match my peers in the (say 55 sec in 100m FC, but they'd be able to then go close to or under 2 minutes for the 200m and I'd be some 10 seconds behind. Just did not have the system to cope with it. Its the same today only worse because I only get in around 12-15k a week. But I can knock out sprint sets like no tomorrow. When I really get into it I just seem to go faster and faster or at least maintain speed through the set.

Funny that you mention hurdles... I remember being pretty good at high jump in school and have been told many times that I have the right legs for the job. Have a very bendy back as well. Maybe I should switch!

Hoofy... I could probably do about 10 on the first set. Infact I used to just do 3 sets to failure and end up doing 10, 6 and 4 or something like that. Not sure that is better.

[muon]

ineverwarmuporcooldown.jpg

[Otispunkmeyer]

should mention I always do a set with just the bar or no weights just to get the motion right first. Find this helps with dead lift as I keep doing the very first lift wrong. If I do some practice ones first then transition into it I get it right first time. Probably should pay attention to cooling down... do it in swimming, but don't at the gym.

[muon]

Otispunkmeyer said:

1) Why am I getting so stiff and sore up to 3 days after the gym ?
2) Why am I so st at pull ups and why don't I seem to be improving (have been on 3 x 6 for months)?
3) Why am I so st at squats? how can I get better? Should I do leg press to get stronger first?

1) Probably is DOMS although not 100% sure... overloading your muscles especially with movements/weights you are not use to will give you discomfort after. Embrace it. If you don't think it's normal, see a physio or have a word with one of the 'good' PT's down there.

2) Are you eating enough? What is your current diet like? Are you consuming a good quality protein and carbs within 30 minutes of dropping your last weight?

Do other exercises to improve your back (and arm) strength such as deadlifts, upright rows, bent over rows etc.

3) Refer to the above.

I'm guessing your issues are mainly diet related.

Also, legs apparently respond VERY well to high rep sets. So rep to failure, drop the weight, rep to failure and continue to do so when even squatting with the bar is painful.

The lower you get the better, but don't try and go below parallel at the expense of form.

Just my input.

[goldblum]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Goldblum... what do you mean by don't know what I am supposed to be doing? You mean like not knowing how many I should be able to do? I think my technique is fine, no jerky movement, keep the body straight and no hitching up of the legs to help the last few cm. Just straight up, straight down. You do have to fight a little to keep the body straight.

What are you training for? What do you hope to achieve? Do you know about sets/reps and how to vary intensity? How good is your technique? Are you pushing hard enough? Do you do other back exercises? Do you have a training program? Have you thought of different kinds of programs that might help you?

On the other hand, pullups are bloody hard.

[Otispunkmeyer]

muon said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

1) Why am I getting so stiff and sore up to 3 days after the gym ?
2) Why am I so st at pull ups and why don't I seem to be improving (have been on 3 x 6 for months)?
3) Why am I so st at squats? how can I get better? Should I do leg press to get stronger first?

1) Probably is DOMS although not 100% sure... overloading your muscles especially with movements/weights you are not use to will give you discomfort after. Embrace it. If you don't think it's normal, see a physio or have a word with one of the 'good' PT's down there.

2) Are you eating enough? What is your current diet like? Are you consuming a good quality protein and carbs within 30 minutes of dropping your last weight?

Do other exercises to improve your back (and arm) strength such as deadlifts, upright rows, bent over rows etc.

3) Refer to the above.

I'm guessing your issues are mainly diet related.

Also, legs apparently respond VERY well to high rep sets. So rep to failure, drop the weight, rep to failure and continue to do so when even squatting with the bar is painful.

The lower you get the better, but don't try and go below parallel at the expense of form.

Just my input.

Thanks for that.

Diet is an interesting point. As it is, I am one of those types that can just about eat what I like without piling on the weight. I have a high metabolism and with swimming, get plenty of cardio. As such, it is as much a challenge for me to gain as it is for some to lose.

I never know really what I should be doing with the diet. I don't eat any ready meals or things like that, its all cooked from scratch at dinner time (usual stuff like spag bol, chicken soup, roast or lightly boiled veg, roasts of beef, pork. Steaks, fish cakes, etc etc) and fresh sarnies for lunch (ham, cheese, tuna, chicken). Never really used supplements as I am very much on the fence as to whether they actually do anything other than convert money into powder. Certainly the robustness and rigor of some of the scientific testing done with such things doesn't inspire confidence. Compared to engineering and traditional sciences some look a bit mickey mouse.

I have read many a time about eating right after exercise. This is even recommended for swimming (banana or a yoghurt or something). I should do it, but I don't. I guess I need to just be more organised with life. However I would prefer something proper to eat rather than a powdery shake or nasty tasting protein bar. Would flapjacks/oatbars work?

As for amount, well I try to keep to the 30% fat by calories rule (used for the british swimmers, think you just x the fat in grams by 10 and compare to total calories). However, when using that my fitness pal app I found I would be eating over on some days and under on others (if their assumptions about how much energy was burned for exercise is right, which it wont be) but averaging out at the end of the week. So I could probably eat a bit more.

[Hoofy]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Hoofy... I could probably do about 10 on the first set. Infact I used to just do 3 sets to failure and end up doing 10, 6 and 4 or something like that. Not sure that is better.

Try 3x7 and see how you get on!

[Otispunkmeyer]

goldblum said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Goldblum... what do you mean by don't know what I am supposed to be doing? You mean like not knowing how many I should be able to do? I think my technique is fine, no jerky movement, keep the body straight and no hitching up of the legs to help the last few cm. Just straight up, straight down. You do have to fight a little to keep the body straight.

What are you training for? What do you hope to achieve? Do you know about sets/reps and how to vary intensity? How good is your technique? Are you pushing hard enough? Do you do other back exercises? Do you have a training program? Have you thought of different kinds of programs that might help you?

On the other hand, pullups are bloody hard.

I could look at training programs till Im blue in the face. There is no formula to it to my mind. Its like cook books and their vague instructions. Bit of this, sprinkle of that, except some people dress it up with fancy language and pretend like there is some concrete science going on.

I am training for swimming. Sprint swimming in particular. I have used Jason Lezak's program that was posted on bodybuilding.com. The guy is one of the fastest 100m freestylers ever so his word carries some weight. However, he is clearly the type who responds well to weights. I used his program for a while and I have to say it did work to an extent. I just got bored of doing the same st over and over. But that had:

A month of steadily building reps
A month of increasing weight, dropping reps
A month of doing lighter weights with really fast reps
A month of increasing weight, low reps
A month of backing off a bit.

I have then taken a book called complete conditioning for swimming and simply memorized all the exercises (core and weights) pertaining to free, back and fly. They have core, foundational strength, stroke specific strenght and explosive (plyo exercises and a few lifts like push press and power cleans). I simply make up a random concoction of those when I go... concentrating at first on foundation and core. Then adding in some specific stuff and plyo at the end.

I am trying to make it a cycle of sorts. Although a friend of mine from the swim team does that kind of thing on a weekly basis and does the plyo stuff when he knows there is a sprint set coming (I dont have that luxury unfortunately).


Its all just a bit much to think about really. The number of exercises and the ways can do them is simply vast and I have no idea what will work and what wont. Its quite off putting really. I just want a simple set of exercises that I can rotate round and do in any order. Which is why I have just been keeping to pull downs, pull ups, deads, rows, squat, chest press and dips. Seems to cover most things.

[goldblum]

Fair enough.

A good starting point is to decide your ultimate goal, and let that dictate what kind of training you do.

Are you sure you want to swim faster or do you want to look like a swimmer? (Of course the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive). You might just want to get bigger and stronger and you believe this will help your swimming. Decide which you want as the way you train for each is entirely different. When you've decided then approach one of the trainers at the Uni gym, let them design you a simple program. If it's a proper swimming program you want then some of the stuff your already doing is dubious for a beginner.

I know what you mean..there's a lot of techniques, lifts, machines, diets etc. out there.

[Otispunkmeyer]

goldblum said:

Fair enough.

A good starting point is to decide your ultimate goal, and let that dictate what kind of training you do.

Are you sure you want to swim faster or do you want to look like a swimmer? (Of course the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive). You might just want to get bigger and stronger and you believe this will help your swimming. Decide which you want as the way you train for each is entirely different. When you've decided then approach one of the trainers at the Uni gym, let them design you a simple program. If it's a proper swimming program you want then some of the stuff your already doing is dubious for a beginner.

I know what you mean..there's a lot of techniques, lifts, machines, diets etc. out there.

I already look like a swimmer. I've been doing it for the past 20 years! lol

I just want more power, to go faster. In order of importance training goes : Swimming, core/land work, weight lifting (of course with diet on top of all that). I can say right now, improvements in stroke will make me faster. I just don't have the pool time, nor the coaching staff to actually do or check this. Self correcting technique can only be done so much as you are limited to what you can see (although I generally can just feel if something is working or not). Its a masters club and the guy who does the sets is in the pool training with us! In general though I have good strokes, certainly room for improvement, but nothing majorly wrong (even had Mel Marshall fix my backstroke!)

We don't get many sessions, so in the absence of lots of swimming I do core and weights. Not sure why you say what I am doing is dubious, it is all from books tailored to land work for swimmers (except maybe dead lifts), some are written by the guys who head the USA swim team. They even provide example gym sets (though they verge on being too long IMO). However, I will concede that our swimmers don't seem to hit the gym quite as hard as the yanks. Their work seems more core, plyometrics, circuit training, light to medium weight with high reps.

When I was on the uni team we did nothing but circuit training. Push ups, sit ups, skipping, med ball, dips, squats, squat thrusts, burpees, V-sits that kind of thing. At my old club we did begin to dabble in weights but were never really taught why we did things and to be honest I don't think the coach knew either. We just did every machine and hoped for the best!

Will ask the guys in the gym. I am not sure they're there as guns for hire mind. More just staffing the gym to keep an eye on things. No one external is even allowed in to our gym either unless they have been inducted.

Trying to tap a friend for info as he was on the uni team for a long time so he knows what kind of stuff to be doing. Its just getting hold of him.

My get out of jail card is quickly becoming pay Mel Marshall for a few hours of her time to cover techniqe adjustments, diet and land training. She is pretty good and last time I used her she spotted where I was going wrong with my back stroke right away (too much rotation in the shoulder that is in the recovery portion of the stroke).

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 4th March 20:17

[goldblum]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I just want more power, to go faster.

Over what distance? The training for short distance sprints and middle/long distance more aerobic based work will be very different.

Otispunkmeyer said:

Not sure why you say what I am doing is dubious,

I said "some of the stuff", but I think you already knew what..

Otispunkmeyer said:

maybe dead lifts

Anyway,

Otispunkmeyer said:

However, I will concede that our swimmers don't seem to hit the gym quite as hard as the yanks. Their work seems more core, plyometrics, circuit training, light to medium weight with high reps.

This sort of training plan is not for power in short, fast races. So do you want middle distance endurance training then?

Otispunkmeyer said:

My get out of jail card is quickly becoming pay Mel Marshall for a few hours of her time to cover technique adjustments, diet and land training. She is pretty good ...

This looks like the best bet. Loughborough has some excellent facilities and will have some of the best coaches across a number of disciplines. It will help in constructing a training plan if you decide what distance of swim it is that you want to get faster at.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Definitely sprints... Not got the lungs for middle/long distance anymore! 100's and 50's for me!

[muon]

I doubt you’re probably eating enough to put on any sizeable muscle and strength especially if you’re an ectomorph. I think you need to do some reading about building muscle and catabolism and anabolism. When you have finished training (especially if you’re been going hard) you are in a very catabolic state which means that you desperately need energy. One of the most effective ways is consuming a protein shake due to the fast digestion of whey protein and some will often take it with a fast digesting carb like dextrose, honey or maple syrup (the idea is that it spikes insulin levels which in turn helps with the uptake of protein (amino acids)). Being an ectomorph this becomes even more important.

It’s another reason why people say not to work out for any longer than an hour to prevent your body being so catabolic that it’s actually burning muscle for energy – good if you want to lose weight (as you’ll burn fat also) but not good if you want to increase your strength and muscle mass.

It sounds to me like you’re burning the candle at both ends. I’m sure people can maintain a high level of prolonged cardio like swimming, have a weight training regime and be able to both improve their swimming performance and strength. However, they’re either new to both, young with high testosterone levels or on some sort of hormone boosting cycle!

If I were you, and was adamant on increasing my strength for swimming, I’d make weight training a priority and reduce my swimming, then once you’ve got stronger and improved your squats and pull-ups and are happy, then up your swimming again and see how you go.

As I say, very few people would be able to do what you’re doing and drastically increase strength and swimming performance at the same time. So I wouldn’t fret too much, just adjust your training and make sure your nutrition is spot on.

If you’re serious about performance and being stronger with more endurance and you are doing a lot of rigorous exercise, I’d definitely looking into buying a good quality whey protein powder and a multi-vitamin. Also, look up creatine. It’s one of the must studied and proven supplements in the industry and it’s used by top athletes. Again, do your own research on it if you’re dubious. It will tell you exactly what it does and how it works.

Edited by muon on Tuesday 5th March 09:58