Bread making, no machines will be harmed
Discussion
OK, keeping this off the sourdough thread. Started to make bread again, by hand. I used to make it many years ago OK and recent results are sort of OK. Ish. Needs some work. The second rise on a basic tin was not too impressive.
So, few things that are confusing.
Yeast and salt. Recipes says not to combine as salt kills the yeast yet it all ends up in the same tub mixed up. Is there a time to add salt or is this duff info?
Second rise was slow or non existent. Type of yeast or the way it has been mixed? How much of an effect does kneading have here?
This second attempt (first rise as I type) I have used yeast that is pre mixed with water and sugar. The prior loaf was the chuck it in dry stuff. This loaf I have kneaded for longer and noticed the texture is a lot different..
Recipe call for a second rise of 1 hour, what if this rise does not make it at 1 hour, I am guessing keep going as temperatures vary, but at what point do you say its a bad un?
Suppose there is a lot of trial and error.
So, few things that are confusing.
Yeast and salt. Recipes says not to combine as salt kills the yeast yet it all ends up in the same tub mixed up. Is there a time to add salt or is this duff info?
Second rise was slow or non existent. Type of yeast or the way it has been mixed? How much of an effect does kneading have here?
This second attempt (first rise as I type) I have used yeast that is pre mixed with water and sugar. The prior loaf was the chuck it in dry stuff. This loaf I have kneaded for longer and noticed the texture is a lot different..
Recipe call for a second rise of 1 hour, what if this rise does not make it at 1 hour, I am guessing keep going as temperatures vary, but at what point do you say its a bad un?
Suppose there is a lot of trial and error.
I'm currently using packet yeast (Hovis) and put it on one side of the bowl with the flour. I then put the salt on the other side of the bowl prior to mixing.
I typically knead for about 10 mins, and then put it in the warm airing cupboard for an hour. After that I knock it back, put it in the loaf tin (or cut it into rolls) and then put back it in the airing cupboard for another half hour or so.
Maybe you're not kneading the dough for long enough (or vigorously enough). The dough can take a right pounding, so don't be afraid to give it some welly.
I typically knead for about 10 mins, and then put it in the warm airing cupboard for an hour. After that I knock it back, put it in the loaf tin (or cut it into rolls) and then put back it in the airing cupboard for another half hour or so.
Maybe you're not kneading the dough for long enough (or vigorously enough). The dough can take a right pounding, so don't be afraid to give it some welly.
I tend to use the bread maker to make loaves — but if I need to make rolls & the airing cupboard's not warm, I make the dough in the bread maker then put the non-stick roasting tin with the rolls in over a mixing bowl about 1/3rd full of very hot water & cover the lot with a clean tea towel to do the second proving. That seems to give a good result in an hour or so.
By coincidence I baked a couple of loves yesterday. This is my method and it works okay.
Grab a bowl, weigh into it 500g flour and sprinkle on 15g fresh yeast, 10g sugar, 10g salt and 5g oil. Mix together and add 300g of warm water. Note at this point the bowl is still on the scales.
Mix throughly in the bowl to a firm dough, I normally use a wooden spoon. Cover the bowl with cling or a lid (I use a pyrex mixing bowl with a domed glass lid)
Put in an oven set to plate warming with the door wedged open with the wooden spoon.
Leave for 60 minutes.
Remove and turn the oven up to 200. Knock back the dough and make a loaf shape. Onto a floured baking sheet, flour the top and cover with a damp tea towel. Put this on top of the oven where it is warm. Prove for 30-60 minutes.
Once proven into the hot oven for 20-30 minutes.
Theoretically bread to start to finish in under 2 hours and the only mess is one bowl, a spoon and a baking sheet.
Grab a bowl, weigh into it 500g flour and sprinkle on 15g fresh yeast, 10g sugar, 10g salt and 5g oil. Mix together and add 300g of warm water. Note at this point the bowl is still on the scales.
Mix throughly in the bowl to a firm dough, I normally use a wooden spoon. Cover the bowl with cling or a lid (I use a pyrex mixing bowl with a domed glass lid)
Put in an oven set to plate warming with the door wedged open with the wooden spoon.
Leave for 60 minutes.
Remove and turn the oven up to 200. Knock back the dough and make a loaf shape. Onto a floured baking sheet, flour the top and cover with a damp tea towel. Put this on top of the oven where it is warm. Prove for 30-60 minutes.
Once proven into the hot oven for 20-30 minutes.
Theoretically bread to start to finish in under 2 hours and the only mess is one bowl, a spoon and a baking sheet.
Edited by 21TonyK on Tuesday 5th March 16:47
Well, 500g tin loaf just out. Did the second raise after giving it a welly as suggested and it went in around 2cm over the tin and sunk that 2cm on cooking. Ignore the flower on top, I got lazy there. Edit. The bread raised to around 2.5 times what it went to the tin as.
Edit 2. OK yeast varies a bit then. From the book (Paul Hollywood)
500g flour
10g salt
20g yeast
50g butter (using unsalted)
290ml water
It gets a bit awkward when saying which yeast to go for. For example deduct x amount if using so and so type etc.
Edit 2. OK yeast varies a bit then. From the book (Paul Hollywood)
500g flour
10g salt
20g yeast
50g butter (using unsalted)
290ml water
It gets a bit awkward when saying which yeast to go for. For example deduct x amount if using so and so type etc.
Edited by jmorgan on Tuesday 5th March 17:42
Get a copy of Dan Lepard's The Handmade Loaf and study the section on 'minimal knead technique'.
It seems counter-intuitive to leave bread alone, but it gives excellent results. He explains the science behind it all as well.
It seems counter-intuitive to leave bread alone, but it gives excellent results. He explains the science behind it all as well.
jmorgan said:
Yeast and salt. Recipes says not to combine as salt kills the yeast yet it all ends up in the same tub mixed up. Is there a time to add salt or is this duff info?
Don't pour salt directly on to yeast (it'll kill it), mix salt into flour then add yeast to that.jmorgan said:
Second rise was slow or non existent. Type of yeast or the way it has been mixed? How much of an effect does kneading have here?
If it's slow you can either wait or warm it up a little. Yeast grows fastest at around body temp, so room temperature rises can be pretty slow. If it's not rising at all (after a few hours) you have killed it.jmorgan said:
Recipe call for a second rise of 1 hour, what if this rise does not make it at 1 hour, I am guessing keep going as temperatures vary, but at what point do you say its a bad un?
I just leave it until it has risen enough. Never had a loaf completely fail to rise, I'd give it a few hours before I even considered it dead.Looks like a bit heavy at the bottom? Top 2/3 looks OK I think?
OK. Kneeding needs more attention.
Not to worry about the yeast and salt, follow the instructions.
Underbake. I used a temp probe looking for 190f
ShampooEfficient, tis the book I am using.
Mobile Chicane. Bought this book (Paul Holywood) thinking it was the bloke I had heard on R4 once describing the ease with which you can make bread. Turns out it was not. Wonder if your suggestion ins the fella? Press the button on amazon later today.
21TonyK. Will be trying that at some point.
Right, things learned. The yeast is OK, don't get too hung up over it. I need to knead more I think, the knock back is inportant. Rise times in books are for indication only and as I do not have an airing cupboard, it could take a bit longer.
OK. Kneeding needs more attention.
Not to worry about the yeast and salt, follow the instructions.
Underbake. I used a temp probe looking for 190f
ShampooEfficient, tis the book I am using.
Mobile Chicane. Bought this book (Paul Holywood) thinking it was the bloke I had heard on R4 once describing the ease with which you can make bread. Turns out it was not. Wonder if your suggestion ins the fella? Press the button on amazon later today.
21TonyK. Will be trying that at some point.
Right, things learned. The yeast is OK, don't get too hung up over it. I need to knead more I think, the knock back is inportant. Rise times in books are for indication only and as I do not have an airing cupboard, it could take a bit longer.
Mobile Chicane said:
Get a copy of Dan Lepard's The Handmade Loaf and study the section on 'minimal knead technique'.
^^^ This. I think it was MC who recommended it last time. It really is amazing how little you need to do. The right ingredients, a little help, and the passing of time...Main thing is did it taste good Jeff?
Just one other point about the second rise or 'prove'
Sometimes, we can get hung up on the timing, and leave too long in the tins before it goes in the oven, by which time it could run out of 'puff'.
I think the trick is to wack it in just before it has 'peaked' then it should continue to make it's maximum rise in the oven.
Let us know how you get on with your next bake.
Tom
Just one other point about the second rise or 'prove'
Sometimes, we can get hung up on the timing, and leave too long in the tins before it goes in the oven, by which time it could run out of 'puff'.
I think the trick is to wack it in just before it has 'peaked' then it should continue to make it's maximum rise in the oven.
Let us know how you get on with your next bake.
Tom
Tastes fine. Good texture and makes superb toast. I suppose you have that image fixed in your mind from the supermarket. That is, a tin always looks like a tin no matter what store you go in. Recently the supermarket farm house bread has been 9/10 air and collapses when you show a knife at it (on purpose methinks). The two bakers in town, usual suspects, are OK after a fashion but somewhere something says "Damn it, I want good bread".
Edit. And the home stuff is not bleached white. Reminds me of the breads on offer at the hotels in Germany.
Edit. And the home stuff is not bleached white. Reminds me of the breads on offer at the hotels in Germany.
Here's a slice just cut from one of yesterdays loaves.
We ate half the loaf yesterday, then put the other half in the freezer, this is cut just after a quick defrost in the microwave, prior to making some good old beans on toast.
(normally we let it thaw out on the worktop)
edited to add photo
We ate half the loaf yesterday, then put the other half in the freezer, this is cut just after a quick defrost in the microwave, prior to making some good old beans on toast.
(normally we let it thaw out on the worktop)
edited to add photo
Edited by Boo152 on Wednesday 6th March 16:01
Absolutely superb. Sank back a tad but the bread is cooked through and risen pretty much all the way through. Part of the recipe was castor sugar, forgot about the recipe from Tony above (must try that to compare).
Bear in mind I normally buy a batch from the usual suspect in town and from this usual suspect its white and its bread and its ok I suppose but this is different, this is going to get made again but the rise times were long on this. But, never tasted a batch like this before and it is tasty.
Think I shall try the fridge overnight rise on the next one. See how it goes.
Reminds me. Must order that book.
Edit. Dan Lepards book ordered.
Right. forgot about yeast and its issues, just slung it in with the salt but paid attention to the kneading. I think that has made all the difference.
Bear in mind I normally buy a batch from the usual suspect in town and from this usual suspect its white and its bread and its ok I suppose but this is different, this is going to get made again but the rise times were long on this. But, never tasted a batch like this before and it is tasty.
Think I shall try the fridge overnight rise on the next one. See how it goes.
Reminds me. Must order that book.
Edit. Dan Lepards book ordered.
Right. forgot about yeast and its issues, just slung it in with the salt but paid attention to the kneading. I think that has made all the difference.
Edited by jmorgan on Tuesday 12th March 15:45
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