Review my wine list...
Discussion
Hello,
We're thinking of changing our wine list at the pub. I know jack-all about wines when going by name/grape. I knows what I like by taste. A supplier has proposed the following and, knowing there's all kinds of knowledgeable people on this site, I wonder whether anyone would like to give me their opinion on a) any/all of the wines and; b) the wine list in general? Here's hoping.
Whites
Reds
Rose and Sparkling
We're thinking of changing our wine list at the pub. I know jack-all about wines when going by name/grape. I knows what I like by taste. A supplier has proposed the following and, knowing there's all kinds of knowledgeable people on this site, I wonder whether anyone would like to give me their opinion on a) any/all of the wines and; b) the wine list in general? Here's hoping.
Whites
- 2012 Macabeo DO Yecla, Molino Loco, Valencia, SPAIN - (also by the glass)
- 2011 Chardonnay, Calbuco, Valle Central, CHILE
- 2011 `P` Pinot Grigio , Alpha Zeta, Veneto, ITALY - (also by the glass)
- 2011 Sauvignon Blanc IGP Pays d`Oc, Baron de Badassière, Languedoc, FRANCE - (also by the glass)
- 2012 Côtes de Gascogne IGP, Domaine de Saint-Lannes, South West France, FRANCE
- 2012 Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc , Tinpot Hut, Marlborough, NEW ZEALAND
- 2011 Petit Chablis, Laroche, Burgundy, FRANCE
- 2011 Gavi di Gavi `Lugarara` , La Giustiniana, Piemonte, ITALY
- 2011 Pouilly-Fuissé, Château de Chaintré, Burgundy, FRANCE
Reds
- 2012 Monastrell DO Yecla, Molino Loco, Valencia, SPAIN - (also by the glass)
- 2012 Merlot/Corvina, Ponte Pietra, Veneto, ITALY
- 2012 Cabernet/Merlot, Calbuco, Valle Central, CHILE - (also by the glass)
- 2011 Grenache/Carignan IGP Pays d`Hérault, Monrouby, Languedoc, FRANCE
- 2012 `Finca Los Primos` Malbec, Valentin Bianchi, Mendoza, ARGENTINA - (also by the glass)
- 2010 McLaren Vale Shiraz/Viognier, Willunga 100, South Australia, AUSTRALIA
- 2009 Bordeaux Rouge , Château de Fontenille, Bordeaux, FRANCE
- 2011 `L de Lyeth` Sonoma County Merlot, Lyeth, California, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
- 2007 Rioja Reserva, Izadi, La Rioja, SPAIN
- 2010 Chianti Rufina, Selvapiana, Tuscany, ITALY
- 2011 `Domaine de Gry-Sablon` Fleurie, Dominique Morel, Beaujolais, FRANCE
- 2010 Crozes Hermitage Rouge, Nicolas Perrin, Northern Rhône , FRANCE
- 2009 `A` Amarone, Alpha Zeta, Veneto, ITALY
Rose and Sparkling
- 2011 Rosé de Syrah IGP Pays d`Oc, Les Vignes de L`Eglise, Languedoc, FRANCE - (also by the glass)
- 2011 Pinot Grigio Rosato , Ponte Pietra, Veneto, ITALY - (also by the glass)
- NV Prosecco Spumante Extra Dry DOC, Cantina Colli Euganei SCA, Veneto, ITALY
Also it's quite heavy on Italian wines. The only Italian we have is a cheaper Copertino
http://www.majestic.co.uk/find/product-is-13157
and a decent Amarone that costs us £20+
Both sell okay but the most asked for wine is a Merlot or a Sauvignon Blanc. We're also changing our list at the moment, it's a minefield. Suppliers will always push whatever they make the most on and IME always play it safe pricewise. We use Majestic and two independents, probably try 10-15 wines for every one that makes it onto the list.
Not saying ours are the best or anything, just that we make sure that every wine on the list is known to us and is the best we could find at that price point. It's difficult if you don't know anything about wine but going on taste is the most important thing. After all, that's what your customers do.
http://www.majestic.co.uk/find/product-is-13157
and a decent Amarone that costs us £20+
Both sell okay but the most asked for wine is a Merlot or a Sauvignon Blanc. We're also changing our list at the moment, it's a minefield. Suppliers will always push whatever they make the most on and IME always play it safe pricewise. We use Majestic and two independents, probably try 10-15 wines for every one that makes it onto the list.
Not saying ours are the best or anything, just that we make sure that every wine on the list is known to us and is the best we could find at that price point. It's difficult if you don't know anything about wine but going on taste is the most important thing. After all, that's what your customers do.
Hi Tony,
Many thanks for your thoughts. As for food and matching - well, we're in the process of drastically changing our food offering. Going for much higher quality ingredients (they're not bad at the moment, just not the best). We're in an affluent area so good quality and the commensurate prices is pretty achievable. Your point is valid though, perhaps we really should be waiting until our menu is sorted before looking at changing our wine list.
I agree with it being a minefield. Suppliers do always push whatever they make the most on. For example, the list above, I asked for a more expensive house wine (white and red). All the supplier did was suggest we sell the same wine at a higher price! The Malbec would come in at £5.90 for a large glass (250ml). Expensive, but again, the locals can and will afford to pay that for a really good wine.
We use Majestic (exclusively) the moment but the wines are crap (I wasn't involved in the selection) which is why I'm pushing to change them.
Thanks for the reassurance re: going by taste. It's all I have but comforting to know that it's worth something. Also good to know that we should not be put off by rejecting wines repeatedly until we're happy.
Do you know, I hadn't considered going with more than one supplier. I definitely will pursue that though.
Thanks again. Much appreciated.
Phil
PS: Are you a pub or a restaurant? Mind if I ask where you are?
Many thanks for your thoughts. As for food and matching - well, we're in the process of drastically changing our food offering. Going for much higher quality ingredients (they're not bad at the moment, just not the best). We're in an affluent area so good quality and the commensurate prices is pretty achievable. Your point is valid though, perhaps we really should be waiting until our menu is sorted before looking at changing our wine list.
I agree with it being a minefield. Suppliers do always push whatever they make the most on. For example, the list above, I asked for a more expensive house wine (white and red). All the supplier did was suggest we sell the same wine at a higher price! The Malbec would come in at £5.90 for a large glass (250ml). Expensive, but again, the locals can and will afford to pay that for a really good wine.
We use Majestic (exclusively) the moment but the wines are crap (I wasn't involved in the selection) which is why I'm pushing to change them.
Thanks for the reassurance re: going by taste. It's all I have but comforting to know that it's worth something. Also good to know that we should not be put off by rejecting wines repeatedly until we're happy.
Do you know, I hadn't considered going with more than one supplier. I definitely will pursue that though.
Thanks again. Much appreciated.
Phil
PS: Are you a pub or a restaurant? Mind if I ask where you are?
Cafe / restaurant in Totnes, Devon.
Agree on Majestic, you really need to sift through their wines to find decent stuff and almost all their trade wines were appalling.
The only issue with multiple suppliers we found is staff keeping track of who supplies what for ordering, meeting minimum orders for deliveries and being seen by them as worth having as a customer. Fortunately one of the indies lives just round the corner from me and drops stuff off at home for me.
We're looking at pricing quite carefully. Our house wine starts at £14.95 but most wines are £23+ with not a huge amount in the £18-22 range, we then have some wines at £75+. This makes our wines look expensive even though there are at least 12 wines under £22 across the reds, whites and rose. We're looking at balancing the pricing better.
We've found that being food driven we can actively sell specific wines and our wine list suggests what each wine pairs well with. People do take notice of it although a lot of people, especially tables of 4+ just decide, red or white then the person "in charge" will ask for a Merlot or a Cab Sav or whatever.
Like you we were very careful about our house wine and purposefully opted for a much better wine in terms of customer value. Pays dividends in the end.
Agree on Majestic, you really need to sift through their wines to find decent stuff and almost all their trade wines were appalling.
The only issue with multiple suppliers we found is staff keeping track of who supplies what for ordering, meeting minimum orders for deliveries and being seen by them as worth having as a customer. Fortunately one of the indies lives just round the corner from me and drops stuff off at home for me.
We're looking at pricing quite carefully. Our house wine starts at £14.95 but most wines are £23+ with not a huge amount in the £18-22 range, we then have some wines at £75+. This makes our wines look expensive even though there are at least 12 wines under £22 across the reds, whites and rose. We're looking at balancing the pricing better.
We've found that being food driven we can actively sell specific wines and our wine list suggests what each wine pairs well with. People do take notice of it although a lot of people, especially tables of 4+ just decide, red or white then the person "in charge" will ask for a Merlot or a Cab Sav or whatever.
Like you we were very careful about our house wine and purposefully opted for a much better wine in terms of customer value. Pays dividends in the end.
Landlord said:
mikial said:
I would suggest you might benefit from adding some more Chilean wine to your list especially whites, some really good quality whites available aside from the Chardonnay .
Lovely - thanks for the suggestion. I'll pursue it with the suppliers.A good Pinot Noir from Chile sells well
21TonyK said:
Cafe / restaurant in Totnes, Devon.
Agree on Majestic, you really need to sift through their wines to find decent stuff and almost all their trade wines were appalling.
The only issue with multiple suppliers we found is staff keeping track of who supplies what for ordering, meeting minimum orders for deliveries and being seen by them as worth having as a customer. Fortunately one of the indies lives just round the corner from me and drops stuff off at home for me.
We're looking at pricing quite carefully. Our house wine starts at £14.95 but most wines are £23+ with not a huge amount in the £18-22 range, we then have some wines at £75+. This makes our wines look expensive even though there are at least 12 wines under £22 across the reds, whites and rose. We're looking at balancing the pricing better.
We've found that being food driven we can actively sell specific wines and our wine list suggests what each wine pairs well with. People do take notice of it although a lot of people, especially tables of 4+ just decide, red or white then the person "in charge" will ask for a Merlot or a Cab Sav or whatever.
Like you we were very careful about our house wine and purposefully opted for a much better wine in terms of customer value. Pays dividends in the end.
Interesting - thanks. I whole-heartedly agree re: house wines. A good house wine, whilst it may seem as if "that's good enough so why bother with the better ones" actually makes people think "if the house is good, I wonder what the more expensive ones are like?"Agree on Majestic, you really need to sift through their wines to find decent stuff and almost all their trade wines were appalling.
The only issue with multiple suppliers we found is staff keeping track of who supplies what for ordering, meeting minimum orders for deliveries and being seen by them as worth having as a customer. Fortunately one of the indies lives just round the corner from me and drops stuff off at home for me.
We're looking at pricing quite carefully. Our house wine starts at £14.95 but most wines are £23+ with not a huge amount in the £18-22 range, we then have some wines at £75+. This makes our wines look expensive even though there are at least 12 wines under £22 across the reds, whites and rose. We're looking at balancing the pricing better.
We've found that being food driven we can actively sell specific wines and our wine list suggests what each wine pairs well with. People do take notice of it although a lot of people, especially tables of 4+ just decide, red or white then the person "in charge" will ask for a Merlot or a Cab Sav or whatever.
Like you we were very careful about our house wine and purposefully opted for a much better wine in terms of customer value. Pays dividends in the end.
Our wine list at the moment is a bit "bargain basement" and the (lack of) quality shows that. The revised list starts at £14.50 and goes up to £35 (both red and white) with a pretty even spread of price points along the way.
Landlord said:
Hi Tony,
PS: Are you a pub or a restaurant? Mind if I ask where you are?
http://www.lafourchettebrasserie.com/PS: Are you a pub or a restaurant? Mind if I ask where you are?
Landlord said:
The revised list starts at £14.50 and goes up to £35 (both red and white) with a pretty even spread of price points along the way.
That sems like a good price ange to me for a pub although I dont know what type of pub it is or what food you do.For more general wine lists you need to cover all bases. I'm not a massive white fan but would suggest some decent competitively priced pinot grigot, chardonnay and sauvignion blanc as these seem to be the most popular with some higher end French stuff as well like a nice pouilly fume or sancerre.
Same type of deal with the reds. Decent Malbec, Cab Sav (perhaps a reasonable Chillian and a more expensive Australian), Rioja, Pinon Noir,and a few lighter Beaujolais like Fleurie or Morgon. At the higher end I'd go for a decent St Emilion to keep the claret lovers happy (me) and perhaps a Barolo or Brunello.
No idea of what sort of trade prices you would be looking at though.
I love good wine and don't mind paying for a decent bottle but the mark ups in some restaurants are nothing short of scandalous. In a recent steak house in Cardiff they were selling bog standard Marques de Caceres for £30 when the trade price is well under a tenner.
Davey S2 said:
That sems like a good price ange to me for a pub although I dont know what type of pub it is or what food you do.
For more general wine lists you need to cover all bases. I'm not a massive white fan but would suggest some decent competitively priced pinot grigot, chardonnay and sauvignion blanc as these seem to be the most popular with some higher end French stuff as well like a nice pouilly fume or sancerre.
Same type of deal with the reds. Decent Malbec, Cab Sav (perhaps a reasonable Chillian and a more expensive Australian), Rioja, Pinon Noir,and a few lighter Beaujolais like Fleurie or Morgon. At the higher end I'd go for a decent St Emilion to keep the claret lovers happy (me) and perhaps a Barolo or Brunello.
I love good wine and don't mind paying for a decent bottle but the mark ups in some restaurants are nothing short of scandalous. In a recent steak house in Cardiff they were selling bog standard Marques de Caceres for £30 when the trade price is well under a tenner.
That's a great help. Thanks. For more general wine lists you need to cover all bases. I'm not a massive white fan but would suggest some decent competitively priced pinot grigot, chardonnay and sauvignion blanc as these seem to be the most popular with some higher end French stuff as well like a nice pouilly fume or sancerre.
Same type of deal with the reds. Decent Malbec, Cab Sav (perhaps a reasonable Chillian and a more expensive Australian), Rioja, Pinon Noir,and a few lighter Beaujolais like Fleurie or Morgon. At the higher end I'd go for a decent St Emilion to keep the claret lovers happy (me) and perhaps a Barolo or Brunello.
I love good wine and don't mind paying for a decent bottle but the mark ups in some restaurants are nothing short of scandalous. In a recent steak house in Cardiff they were selling bog standard Marques de Caceres for £30 when the trade price is well under a tenner.
Davey S2 said:
I love good wine and don't mind paying for a decent bottle but the mark ups in some restaurants are nothing short of scandalous. In a recent steak house in Cardiff they were selling bog standard Marques de Caceres for £30 when the trade price is well under a tenner.
That really is taking the piss, it's two for £16 retail in Majestic. The only thing I'd add is that trade prices are not necessarily better than retail offer prices. Sometimes you end up paying more because the supplier is accounting for delivery costs, holding extra stock for you, offering credit terms and as things are at the moment making an allowance for bad debts. None of which they have to do for retail customers.Plus, the restaurant will be losing 20% of the sale price in VAT and only claiming back 20% of the purchase so not quite as much profit as people immediately think. But, £30 for Caceres is naughty.
Has anyone considered The Wine Society as supplier?
http://www.thewinesociety.com/
I eventually got round to joining last year, and have to say the experience so far has been superb. Reliable delivery and with one possible exception, all the 20 odd wines I have tried so far , have been right up there in the bang for buck stakes. Excellent selections.
Other than being a very satisfied customer , I have no connection with the company. Must add though, I've no experience with them as a trade customer, basically because I'm not trade.
http://www.thewinesociety.com/
I eventually got round to joining last year, and have to say the experience so far has been superb. Reliable delivery and with one possible exception, all the 20 odd wines I have tried so far , have been right up there in the bang for buck stakes. Excellent selections.
Other than being a very satisfied customer , I have no connection with the company. Must add though, I've no experience with them as a trade customer, basically because I'm not trade.
Looks a good list - if you want to PM me, I run a pub in Suffolk.
Our wine list is online http://www.theangelwoodbridge.co.uk/The_Angel_Wood... (as is our gin list!)
Happy to have a chat to you at any stage.
Our wine list is online http://www.theangelwoodbridge.co.uk/The_Angel_Wood... (as is our gin list!)
Happy to have a chat to you at any stage.
Cheese Mechanic said:
Has anyone considered The Wine Society as supplier?
http://www.thewinesociety.com/
I eventually got round to joining last year, and have to say the experience so far has been superb. Reliable delivery and with one possible exception, all the 20 odd wines I have tried so far , have been right up there in the bang for buck stakes. Excellent selections.
Other than being a very satisfied customer , I have no connection with the company. Must add though, I've no experience with them as a trade customer, basically because I'm not trade.
No - not considered them thus far. Will now though! Thanks.http://www.thewinesociety.com/
I eventually got round to joining last year, and have to say the experience so far has been superb. Reliable delivery and with one possible exception, all the 20 odd wines I have tried so far , have been right up there in the bang for buck stakes. Excellent selections.
Other than being a very satisfied customer , I have no connection with the company. Must add though, I've no experience with them as a trade customer, basically because I'm not trade.
chris.mapey said:
Looks a good list - if you want to PM me, I run a pub in Suffolk.
Our wine list is online http://www.theangelwoodbridge.co.uk/The_Angel_Wood... (as is our gin list!)
Happy to have a chat to you at any stage.
Thanks Chris - I may well take you up on that offer. Our wine list is online http://www.theangelwoodbridge.co.uk/The_Angel_Wood... (as is our gin list!)
Happy to have a chat to you at any stage.
Cheese Mechanic said:
Has anyone considered The Wine Society as supplier?
http://www.thewinesociety.com/
I eventually got round to joining last year, and have to say the experience so far has been superb. Reliable delivery and with one possible exception, all the 20 odd wines I have tried so far , have been right up there in the bang for buck stakes. Excellent selections.
Other than being a very satisfied customer , I have no connection with the company. Must add though, I've no experience with them as a trade customer, basically because I'm not trade.
Looking to join shortly so thats a positive review.http://www.thewinesociety.com/
I eventually got round to joining last year, and have to say the experience so far has been superb. Reliable delivery and with one possible exception, all the 20 odd wines I have tried so far , have been right up there in the bang for buck stakes. Excellent selections.
Other than being a very satisfied customer , I have no connection with the company. Must add though, I've no experience with them as a trade customer, basically because I'm not trade.
Landlord said:
The revised list starts at £14.50 and goes up to £35 (both red and white) with a pretty even spread of price points along the way.
It's not a bad list by any stretch of the imagination, but there's also a slight sense of "generic" about some of the wines and not much depth. If you're pushing towards the upper market, are there any opportunities to get a couple of better known producers on there? For example, if Sauv Blanc is your customers thing, offer say Greywacke at a higher price point than the one that is already on there. Same with the bordeaux - put another one on that isn't entry level?Why no champagne? And not even a token sweet wine?
Consider half bottles too? If it's just MrsLT and I out for dinner we often use the equitable "I drive there, she drives back" arrangement. I'd gladly spend £20+ on a good half bottle, but will drink beer or water over spending the same money on a lesser (but full) bottle. A wine by the glass selection doesn't solve the problem.
LooneyTunes said:
It's not a bad list by any stretch of the imagination, but there's also a slight sense of "generic" about some of the wines and not much depth. If you're pushing towards the upper market, are there any opportunities to get a couple of better known producers on there? For example, if Sauv Blanc is your customers thing, offer say Greywacke at a higher price point than the one that is already on there. Same with the bordeaux - put another one on that isn't entry level?
Why no champagne? And not even a token sweet wine?
Consider half bottles too? If it's just MrsLT and I out for dinner we often use the equitable "I drive there, she drives back" arrangement. I'd gladly spend £20+ on a good half bottle, but will drink beer or water over spending the same money on a lesser (but full) bottle. A wine by the glass selection doesn't solve the problem.
Great points. There's complete scope for putting "name" wines in there. I hadn't thought of half-bottles, but as we're a destination pub, it'd probably be a great idea.Why no champagne? And not even a token sweet wine?
Consider half bottles too? If it's just MrsLT and I out for dinner we often use the equitable "I drive there, she drives back" arrangement. I'd gladly spend £20+ on a good half bottle, but will drink beer or water over spending the same money on a lesser (but full) bottle. A wine by the glass selection doesn't solve the problem.
No idea about the champagne (the list is based on what Landlady asked for) but, again, I think our (potential) client base would like it.
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