Does this mean I can tow??

[300bhp/ton]

From: https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence...

driectGov said:

Licences held from 1 January 1997

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:

-a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to 4,250kg in total)

-a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)

Can anyone give any examples of what this entitlement actually means?

e.g. I presume a Discovery with an iFor Williams trailer and a Defender on the back would be over the weight limits.

But how about a Discovery with a Caterham on compact trailer?

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 20th March 15:29

[gradeA]

Read Me!

[300bhp/ton]

doogz said:

What's the gross weight of a Disco?

Unlikely to leave you enough in reserve to tow a decent sized trailer and remain under the 3.5T.

Google says 2700kg.


Re-reading it, is it trying to say that:

-If I had a vehicle that weighed in at 3500kg I could tow a max of 750kg trailer for a total of 4250kg

or

-I can tow heavier than a 750kg trailer so long as it doesn't weigh more than the tow vehicle and total weight doesn't exceed 3500kg? So 2000kg tow vehicle + 1500kg trailer??



(Or if I jump into a tractor I can tow 18 tonnes+ regardless... )

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 20th March 15:38

[Willy Nilly]

300bhp/ton said:

(Or if I jump into a tractor I can tow 18 tonnes+ regardless... )

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 20th March 15:38

You could gross about 24.5t but you would only beable to travel at 20mph and you are limited on what you can haul and IIRC how far you can haul it.

Fortunately the rules are very straight forward on towing so nobody ever is even slightly confused on what you can tow and what you can tow it with, which is why I hardly ever see threads like this on a multitude of web sites.

[300bhp/ton]

Just read it again. And I think the second paragraph is saying this.


For a trailer greater than 750kg MAM I can tow it so long as it doesn't "weigh" more than the tow vehicles kerb weight.

e.g.

A trailer with a 1700kg MAM and a vehicle with a kerb weight of 1800kg. Together the MAM and the kerb weight do not exceed 3500kg.


Hugely convoluted and must only ever have been written like this to try and entrap people I reckon.

[CAPP0]

I towed my Defender behind my L322 on a Brian James trailer and that was well inside the towing limit. I think most Land Rover vehicles, except perhaps the Freelander and the Evoque, are rated at towing 3500kg.

[Slidingpillar]

Yup, it's plated weight, not actual. Weight of load is irrelevant, providing it's not over the carrying capacity of the trailer. Something you have to watch as although the trailed load may be within the capacity of the tow vehicle, if the trailer was fully loaded to the maximum weight it can carry and such a figure was over the tow vehicle's published capacity - to tow that trailer, even unladen is illegal.

Solution, providing the combination is with the limits is to get the trailer replated at the lower load figure.

[kambites]

doogz said:

The issue is the phrase "combined weight"

What weight? Gross/MAM? Actual weight at the time, when you get pulled over?

I can't remember which it refers to. I thought it was MAM, but why wouldn't they just say that, given they've used that acronym already? I just sat my B+E test.

It's MAM.

[kambites]

doogz said:

I don't think that's correct.

The way I understand it, the trailer gross weight must be less than the kerb weight of the tow vehicle, and both the gross/MAM of the trailer and tow vehicle must add up to not more than 3.5Te.

It's a little more complicated than that. You can tow up to 750kg with anything you can drive on a category B licence, so you could have a 3500kg MAM car and 750kg MAM trailer. However if the trailer has has a MAM of over 750kg, they combined MAM cannot exceed 3500kg.

Oh and the MAM of the trailer can't exceed the unladen weight of the car.

I think.

[kambites]

I have towed a (very light) car on B, but you have to be very careful of the vehicle and trailer that you choose. Better to just take the test and get B+E.

[kambites]

doogz said:

kambites said:

I have towed a (very light) car on B, but you have to be very careful of the vehicle and trailer that you choose.

My mate used to tow his AX on a BJ Minno, with a VW Sharan, and was inside the 3.5Te on his B licence.

This was a stripped out MG Midget behind a 3-series.

[mph1977]

300bhp/ton said:

<snip>

Hugely convoluted and must only ever have been written like this to try and entrap people I reckon.

iirc this is derogation and does not apply to all EU states , where you must pass B+E to tow any braked trailer ...

would you rather this be the case ?

[mph1977]

CAPP0 said:

I towed my Defender behind my L322 on a Brian James trailer and that was well inside the towing limit. I think most Land Rover vehicles, except perhaps the Freelander and the Evoque, are rated at towing 3500kg.

presumably with a B+E licence given the MAM of a FFRR solo

[300bhp/ton]

I agree taking the test is the best solution, just a shame it's so much hassle and cost to do so considering what you want to tow isn't significantly different in reality.

kambites said:

However if the trailer has has a MAM of over 750kg, they combined MAM cannot exceed 3500kg.

I'm certainly not disputing this is the case, only that I don't think it reads this way.

also if you are combining the MAM's then a 3500MAM vehicle + a 750kg MAM trailer would exceed 3500kg, hence the first paragraph.

I'm pretty certain the 2nd paragraph is taking the kerb weight of the tow vehicle + the MAM of the trailer. Combined these cannot be more than 3500kg (even though the combined MAM's might be). And the trailer MAM cannot exceed the weight of the tow vehicle.



To put it into examples if I've read this correctly.


ok

-Defender + 750kg MAM trailer (paragraph 1 as total MAM would be 4250kg)

-Freelander + small trailer + Caterham (paragraph 2, trailer is heavier than 750kg MAM, but less than the Freelander. Trailer MAM + Freelander kerb weigh is less than 3500kg)

-Discovery + small trailer + Caterham (same as the Freelander)


Not ok

-Freelander + small trailer + Defender (trailer MAM would weigh more than the Freelander even if Freelander + trailer MAM is under 3500kg)

-Discovery + small trailer + Defender (even if the MAM of the trailer is less than the Discovery, the Discovery kerb weight + MAM of trailer would exceed 3500kg)



I guess the stupid part is you can, with a "big" vehicle tow an all up weight of 4250kg.

But if you want to change the ratio between the tow weight and the tow vehicle the all up weight limit gets reduced to 3500kg.

I guess this wouldn't be so bad, but the Trailer Test does nothing to educate you or test for this change in weights or conditions.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 20th March 16:40

[300bhp/ton]

To add pictures, if I read this correctly.



OK to tow (assuming trailer is 750kg MAM)



Probably ok (so long as the trailer MAM isn't more than the Disco's kerb weight)





Not ok (but only because the vehicle on the trailer weighs a bit more)

[HustleRussell]

Willy Nilly said:

Fortunately the rules are very straight forward on towing so nobody ever is even slightly confused on what you can tow and what you can tow it with, which is why I hardly ever see threads like this on a multitude of web sites.

Super massive sarcasm overload.

[frodo_monkey]

Your second pic won't be OK - that trailer will be plated to something like 2000kg, which would push you over the 3500kg limit for a tow car and braked trailer on a B licence. The only way you can really tow on a B licence is with something like an estate car or MPV towing a reasonably light car on a reasonably low-plated trailer.

My example:

Skoda Octavia, kerb weight 1350kg unladen
Race car (Kitten V8), weight 800kg
Trailer is a single axle Woodford (load capacity 950kg, trailer weighs 350kg, total MAM 1300kgs)

[Super Slo Mo]

When we've had this subject crop up before, the MAM is only important for those of you who passed post 1997, and haven't done the B+E test (IIRC, I think RoG set me right on the last one), so that means for a trailer who's MAM is over 750 KG (and that Ifor Williams cattle trailer you posted a pic of will be over 750 kg unladen I reckon, given the weight of the flatbed I was towing the other week), your gross train weight shouldn't exceed 3,500 kg's.

For the rest of us, it's just the actual weights that matter.

Either that, or I've got it the wrong way around, but I don't think so.

[CAPP0]

mph1977 said:

CAPP0 said:

I towed my Defender behind my L322 on a Brian James trailer and that was well inside the towing limit. I think most Land Rover vehicles, except perhaps the Freelander and the Evoque, are rated at towing 3500kg.

presumably with a B+E licence given the MAM of a FFRR solo

I passed my test over 35 years ago

[kambites]

I think maybe it's changed. I've just found an old document from when I last looked and it was worded:

Licence B entitlement said:

Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500 kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg

Combinations of vehicles in Category B and a trailer, where MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.

But I can't see anything talking about the combined MAM on the government website now.