The wrong knight?

[JeffreyB]

Seeing Sir Stirling Moss on TV recently has reminded me that I've long believed the wrong racing driver was knighted. Why not a knighthood for the only man to have won World Championships on two and four wheels. A man who won seven World Championships on motorcycles, one Formula One world drivers' title and the North American Can-Am Championship for sports cars.

Oh, I nearly forgot he also designed, built and raced his own F1, F2 and F5000 cars

Isn't it time the great John Surtees became Sir John Surtees?

[jimbob82]

waaaaaaay overdue yes, but, he may well have been offered 1 and turned it down...many people have turned down knighthoods. I don't think it's fair to say that SM shouldn't have been knighted though.

[Steffan]

jimbob82 said:

waaaaaaay overdue yes, but, he may well have been offered 1 and turned it down...many people have turned down knighthoods. I don't think it's fair to say that SM shouldn't have been knighted though.

My view entirely Stiring Moss was magnificent as a young reacer who favored British cars at the cost of never being World champion himself. Fangio always said Stirling Moss was the greatest racer and that is praise indeed.

Surtees is certainly entitled to a knighthood, indeed long ago, but so was the legendary Sir Stirling Moss

[85Carrera]

Steffan said:

jimbob82 said:

waaaaaaay overdue yes, but, he may well have been offered 1 and turned it down...many people have turned down knighthoods. I don't think it's fair to say that SM shouldn't have been knighted though.

My view entirely Stiring Moss was magnificent as a young reacer who favored British cars at the cost of never being World champion himself. Fangio always said Stirling Moss was the greatest racer and that is praise indeed.

Surtees is certainly entitled to a knighthood, indeed long ago, but so was the legendary Sir Stirling Moss

Didn't realise Mercedes were British.

Seems to me that his stock has risen over the years, particularly in relation to some of his contemporaries who were British world champions but died back in the day and so have not been around to promote themselves over the past 30-40 years.

[Steffan]

85Carrera said:

Steffan said:

jimbob82 said:

waaaaaaay overdue yes, but, he may well have been offered 1 and turned it down...many people have turned down knighthoods. I don't think it's fair to say that SM shouldn't have been knighted though.

My view entirely Stiring Moss was magnificent as a young reacer who favored British cars at the cost of never being World champion himself. Fangio always said Stirling Moss was the greatest racer and that is praise indeed.

Surtees is certainly entitled to a knighthood, indeed long ago, but so was the legendary Sir Stirling Moss

Didn't realise Mercedes were British.

Seems to me that his stock has risen over the years, particularly in relation to some of his contemporaries who were British world champions but died back in the day and so have not been around to promote themselves over the past 30-40 years.

I did say SM favored British cars, which he did at significant personal cost. I did not say he only drove British cars.

I was around at the time of Stirling Moss reaching the extraordinary heights he achieved in Motor Racing. He was always head and shoulders above every other driver in his early career. Poor machinery and his "I am racer and drive win at all costs" approach was perhaps less than a perfect combination. I do not think any of his contemporaries with the exception of Fangio no one could catch Moss. And as Fangio frequently stated no one in racing could catch Moss in the wet he was simply on his own in the rain.

Greatest British Racing Driver of all time? Undoubtedly Stirling Moss although Jim Clarke might have pipped him, but we will never know now. Moss was indeed fortunate to survive the crash that ended his career. Never explained before or since. I am sorry to say I think it may have been driver error or possibly as Moss suggested himself something broke. It was a Lotus after all.

[XRS]

I remember I signed an online petition to knight John Surtees a few years back. Sadly didn't happen of course.

[ClassicMotorNut]

jimbob82 said:

waaaaaaay overdue yes, but, he may well have been offered 1 and turned it down...many people have turned down knighthoods. I don't think it's fair to say that SM shouldn't have been knighted though.

+1

Stirling is a very talented driver and an excellent character. He is perfectly deserving of his knighthood. It is also true that Surtees was at the very least an equally good driver and obviously a better motorcyclist, so I agree that his knighthood is long overdue.

[WJM]

ClassicMotorNut said:

+1

Stirling is a very talented driver and an excellent character. He is perfectly deserving of his knighthood. It is also true that Surtees was at the very least an equally good driver and obviously a better motorcyclist, so I agree that his knighthood is long overdue.

Not sure about an "equally good driver" when they raced in F1 together in 60 and 61 Moss was the one challenging for the world title in a privatley entered car. I'd have said Surtees was a very good but not great F1 driver { as good as Hill or Brabham but not Clark or Moss} and a great motorcyclist, as such he probably deserves a knighthood though he is nowhere near as famous as Moss still is which may be the reason { lets not forget Moss himself was only knighted a few years ago}. I remember in 1990 I worked for an alloy wheels company and we had some reseach on name recognition for racing drivers and Moss even then was 2nd to Nigel Mansell.

Bill

[Steffan]

WJM said:

ClassicMotorNut said:

+1

Stirling is a very talented driver and an excellent character. He is perfectly deserving of his knighthood. It is also true that Surtees was at the very least an equally good driver and obviously a better motorcyclist, so I agree that his knighthood is long overdue.

Not sure about an "equally good driver" when they raced in F1 together in 60 and 61 Moss was the one challenging for the world title in a privatley entered car. I'd have said Surtees was a very good but not great F1 driver { as good as Hill or Brabham but not Clark or Moss} and a great motorcyclist, as such he probably deserves a knighthood though he is nowhere near as famous as Moss still is which may be the reason { lets not forget Moss himself was only knighted a few years ago}. I remember in 1990 I worked for an alloy wheels company and we had some reseach on name recognition for racing drivers and Moss even then was 2nd to Nigel Mansell.

Bill

I suspect Moss would now be first against Mansell. Moss was in a different league as a racing driver.

[Daisy Duke]

Steffan said:

Surtees is certainly entitled to a knighthood, indeed long ago, but so was the legendary Sir Stirling Moss

I remember a discussion about this going on in the paddock of an historic racing event, and someone suggested that JS may have inadvertently upset the wrong person. I have no idea whether there were any grounds to this comment or it was just idle speculation though.

Steffan said:

Greatest British Racing Driver of all time? Undoubtedly Stirling Moss although Jim Clarke might have pipped him, but we will never know now. Moss was indeed fortunate to survive the crash that ended his career. Never explained before or since. I am sorry to say I think it may have been driver error or possibly as Moss suggested himself something broke. It was a Lotus after all.

I agree with you, but I'm not sure I'd ever be brave enough to suggest to SS that the crash may have been his fault.

[Steffan]

Daisy Duke said:

Steffan said:

Surtees is certainly entitled to a knighthood, indeed long ago, but so was the legendary Sir Stirling Moss

I remember a discussion about this going on in the paddock of an historic racing event, and someone suggested that JS may have inadvertently upset the wrong person. I have no idea whether there were any grounds to this comment or it was just idle speculation though.

Steffan said:

Greatest British Racing Driver of all time? Undoubtedly Stirling Moss although Jim Clarke might have pipped him, but we will never know now. Moss was indeed fortunate to survive the crash that ended his career. Never explained before or since. I am sorry to say I think it may have been driver error or possibly as Moss suggested himself something broke. It was a Lotus after all.

I agree with you, but I'm not sure I'd ever be brave enough to suggest to SS that the crash may have been his fault.

As a child I followed every victory of the charismatic Stirling Moss. As a young driver racing in the 1960's I was privileged to meet the man and DSJ and many of his contemporaries. His accident has never been satisfactorily explained. I researched it at the time and later watched and listened as several motor racing aficionados examined all the evidence and made programs or wrote articles about the probable cause.

I may well be wrong but I think that the probable cause was driver error. But the more general explanation is the Lotus, which was a notoriously fragile car pared to minimum weight, broke. Like Wolfgang Von Trips most unfortunately killed in his last race I think Moss at the time was trying too hard.

Stirling Moss was undoubtedly the greatest motor racing driver this country ever produced and there were a large number, Clarke, Stewart, Mansell, Hill 1, Hill 2, Surtees and many others. Nothing can detract from that fact. My idle speculation 50 years later is just that.

[RichB]

Steffan said:

... I think Moss at the time was trying too hard.

But my recollection is that he was a lap down on Hill towards the end of the race so why do you say he was trying too hard. He would have simply been unlapping himself. In the clips I have seen he appears to spear straight off the track.

Anyway, yes clearly Surtees should be knighted.

[Steffan]

RichB said:

Steffan said:

... I think Moss at the time was trying too hard.

But my recollection is that he was a lap down on Hill towards the end of the race so why do you say he was trying too hard. He would have simply been unlapping himself. In the clips I have seen he appears to spear straight off the track.

Anyway, yes clearly Surtees should be knighted.

I think we need to consider Stirling Moss the racing driver. Ten laps down Moss would have been just as determined to get past a competitor. That exceptional determination typified everything the man ever did. One of the many reasons that I failed at racing (won a few but not enough) is that I am compulsive/obsessive but not driven in that way.

Great sportsmen are very different from the run of the mill like me. Great sportsmen will never be beaten never give up, never give in. That was and is Stirling Moss. I am very pleased that he is still with us, still just as outspoken and still a glorious living legend. It is just my opinion that the cause of the crash may have been error. Just my opinion and I am frequently wrong.