Pioneer LX86 and B&W CM9s
Discussion
Hi,
I am considering buying a LX86 towards the end of this year. I am looking around at speaker set ups. I currently have a pair of B&W 602S3 which sound fab to me. They will be my fronts until I can afford to replace them with CM9s. I plan to have CM1 as rear speakers and a CM centre speak too at some stage. I am unsure of what sub to go for.
I did think about the MA Apex however thought a free standing speaker as fronts would be better.
I will demo the set-up but it would be good to have some recommendations on my approach or other recommendations.
Kind regards,
LP
I am considering buying a LX86 towards the end of this year. I am looking around at speaker set ups. I currently have a pair of B&W 602S3 which sound fab to me. They will be my fronts until I can afford to replace them with CM9s. I plan to have CM1 as rear speakers and a CM centre speak too at some stage. I am unsure of what sub to go for.
I did think about the MA Apex however thought a free standing speaker as fronts would be better.
I will demo the set-up but it would be good to have some recommendations on my approach or other recommendations.
Kind regards,
LP
MA Apex owner here. (although with a BK sub)
As Ive said many times on here, they are stunning. So warm, so detailed, they fight when you want them to or they are happy to stroke your head in their lap.
The main thing I appreciate is the reality of the tones in them.
If you hear a dog barking on the sound track, you cant tell if its through the speakers or the damn mutt is next to you.
For that price range, I havnt heard anything that comes close.
As Ive said many times on here, they are stunning. So warm, so detailed, they fight when you want them to or they are happy to stroke your head in their lap.
The main thing I appreciate is the reality of the tones in them.
If you hear a dog barking on the sound track, you cant tell if its through the speakers or the damn mutt is next to you.
For that price range, I havnt heard anything that comes close.
Edited by GhostDriver on Tuesday 26th March 13:36
Bigger generally gives you better depth of sound, obviously.
But thats only a small part of the story.
The tonality & response time are down to the driver.
The Apex drivers I would argue are of higher quality. But even on depth, if you read the Apex reviews most reviewers comment that the Apex give larger speakers a run for their money.
Alot depends on the size/accoustics of the room and also your own ear (the most important factor). Id go listen to a back to back demo on both of them. Then pick the brains of someone knowledgable about how the different speakers would react to your room.
You may find the B&W a bit boomy for a wide open room with hard surfaces, equally you might find the Apex system not full enough for a soft room.
Bottom line is they are both great systems, all I can do is give my advice on the one I own and use daily, and I love it to bits. The speakers also look really classy so the Wifey is very happy with them too.
Bit of a cliche, but you really have to demo them.
But thats only a small part of the story.
The tonality & response time are down to the driver.
The Apex drivers I would argue are of higher quality. But even on depth, if you read the Apex reviews most reviewers comment that the Apex give larger speakers a run for their money.
Alot depends on the size/accoustics of the room and also your own ear (the most important factor). Id go listen to a back to back demo on both of them. Then pick the brains of someone knowledgable about how the different speakers would react to your room.
You may find the B&W a bit boomy for a wide open room with hard surfaces, equally you might find the Apex system not full enough for a soft room.
Bottom line is they are both great systems, all I can do is give my advice on the one I own and use daily, and I love it to bits. The speakers also look really classy so the Wifey is very happy with them too.
Bit of a cliche, but you really have to demo them.
And I am a dick. Just realised you were talking about the cm9s for fronts.
(thought you were gonna go CM1 all round, sorry).
yes if you can afford the extra go for the CM9s. Especially if you will be using them for music, they will sound alot fuller.
Everything in my last post still holds true though. Although Ive only really demo'd the CM1s.
(thought you were gonna go CM1 all round, sorry).
yes if you can afford the extra go for the CM9s. Especially if you will be using them for music, they will sound alot fuller.
Everything in my last post still holds true though. Although Ive only really demo'd the CM1s.
I'd also recommend that you get the closest possible match for your left/right speakers when you chose your centre. Don't fall into the trap of buying a smaller one so it will fit under the TV neatly: They carry much of the sound of a film and a badly matched centre will destroy the front soundstage such that I'd recommend using a phantom centre instead if you can't get a perfect matching centre. I've just done this myself since although my front three are exactly matching (PMCs but you get the idea) the centre is too low and sounds 'boxy' as the sound is bouncing off the floor. It sounds better with a phantom setting until I can come up with a solution (the TV is in the way, but I'm more bothered about the sound when using my projector since I have it up near reference level).
Another vote for BK Subs as well since you can get many different finishes so there is no need to worry about having a match for your main speakers. Since they sell direct you get much better value for money. I've had my Monolith over 5 years now and to get an improvement I'm going to have to spend nearer 2k so it shows how good they are for the money.
http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm
EDIT:Just had a look an a CM2 centre would be a better match for the CM9 fronts (even then IMHO it's a bit on the small side but they don't make a bigger one).
Another vote for BK Subs as well since you can get many different finishes so there is no need to worry about having a match for your main speakers. Since they sell direct you get much better value for money. I've had my Monolith over 5 years now and to get an improvement I'm going to have to spend nearer 2k so it shows how good they are for the money.
http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm
EDIT:Just had a look an a CM2 centre would be a better match for the CM9 fronts (even then IMHO it's a bit on the small side but they don't make a bigger one).
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Tuesday 26th March 15:42
Yes BK certainly have a good following and seem to be much better VFM than some subs twice the price due to the direct selling. it was rumoured that BK were the OEM for some REL subwoofers and comparing the XLS200 to some older RELs I wouldn't be surprised (the XLS200 being less than half the REL price too 
.
I think a Monolith plus would possibly best the B&W or Apex subs you mention or you could buy two for less than the B&W to better smooth the bass response in room. You'd even have money left over for an Antimode 8033 sub EQ box (if your amp doesn't have Audyssey). There are loads of threads about BK over on AVForums (where I first heard about them).
The current Monolith thread:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-...
However, if you are looking at over a grand for a sub, then I'd recommend having a look/listen to the new subs made by the 'Ulitmate Subwoofer Company' that are based near Newbury. For around £1,400 they are doing a 15" sealed sub with an external 3000 watts DPS amp or for another £300 (approx since prices are yet to be finalised) for the 18" version. These are in black, but a veneered option will be available for another £300 or so (again prices to be finalised).
There was a meet on Sunday and they compared some M&K subs plus some there have SVS subs themselves and these just blew them away reading the posts. I couldn't make it myself unfortunately, but I'm planing to go for a demo soon once the 18" is available so I can decide if I think it's worth the extra cost over the 15" version...then I'll sell my Monolith.
The Ultimate thread:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-...
Meeting thread where most of the initial comments were posted page 12 onwards.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/shows-events/171517...
.I think a Monolith plus would possibly best the B&W or Apex subs you mention or you could buy two for less than the B&W to better smooth the bass response in room. You'd even have money left over for an Antimode 8033 sub EQ box (if your amp doesn't have Audyssey). There are loads of threads about BK over on AVForums (where I first heard about them).
The current Monolith thread:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-...
However, if you are looking at over a grand for a sub, then I'd recommend having a look/listen to the new subs made by the 'Ulitmate Subwoofer Company' that are based near Newbury. For around £1,400 they are doing a 15" sealed sub with an external 3000 watts DPS amp or for another £300 (approx since prices are yet to be finalised) for the 18" version. These are in black, but a veneered option will be available for another £300 or so (again prices to be finalised).
There was a meet on Sunday and they compared some M&K subs plus some there have SVS subs themselves and these just blew them away reading the posts. I couldn't make it myself unfortunately, but I'm planing to go for a demo soon once the 18" is available so I can decide if I think it's worth the extra cost over the 15" version...then I'll sell my Monolith.
The Ultimate thread:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-...
Meeting thread where most of the initial comments were posted page 12 onwards.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/shows-events/171517...
Sound advice regarding centre from oldskoolRS. As he said I think something like 70-80% of the sound of a film track comes from the centre.
I've got the Apex A40 as my centre & a10s for all sats, but some have A40s x3 at the front with 2 A10s for the rear. Budget restraints & the fact I don't listen to music affected that choice.
RS... did Audyssey setup not balance your centre? Also a nice fluffy floor rug might help?
Also as RS says the BKs ARE that good. I have the XLS200, my room is fairly small. It too has the most amazing clarity, range and punch when needed. Had it for maybe 8 odd years. Solid performer.
I've got the Apex A40 as my centre & a10s for all sats, but some have A40s x3 at the front with 2 A10s for the rear. Budget restraints & the fact I don't listen to music affected that choice.
RS... did Audyssey setup not balance your centre? Also a nice fluffy floor rug might help?
Also as RS says the BKs ARE that good. I have the XLS200, my room is fairly small. It too has the most amazing clarity, range and punch when needed. Had it for maybe 8 odd years. Solid performer.
Edited by GhostDriver on Tuesday 26th March 23:16
Ghostdriver I can fully understand budget restraints limiting your choice. Of course A40s all round would be ideal, but back in the real world not always possible. My system didn't sound good when at one point I upgraded the centre for the current PMC TB2+ it just didn't 'gel' with the smaller DB1+ fronts I had. Equally while I'm tempted to look for a used CB6+ centre (they sound fanatastic) I know it won't blend properly with the TB2+ fronts (and the matching massive/expensive OB1 fronts are out of the question). However,my upgrades were done over a long time buying used PMC speakers (and selling on the unwanted ones to help towards the cost).
I've got the XLS200 in my conservatory (overkill but I bought it before the Monolith for my main system) it's a great sub in it's own right just that my main room is a bit too big for it.
My Arcam AV9 doesn't have Audyssey (I'm not a fan personally since a previous amp had it and damaged the original driver in my sub due to an excessive boost very low down). It's simple processor,but very good with stereo music, so I can forgive it'slack of room EQ. I do have a separate Antimode EQ just for my sub which is the most important speaker for EQ I reckon. But basically my centre just needs to be further from the floor as even a thick rug makes no difference (it's just an acoustic/distance issue).
I've got the XLS200 in my conservatory (overkill but I bought it before the Monolith for my main system) it's a great sub in it's own right just that my main room is a bit too big for it.
My Arcam AV9 doesn't have Audyssey (I'm not a fan personally since a previous amp had it and damaged the original driver in my sub due to an excessive boost very low down). It's simple processor,but very good with stereo music, so I can forgive it'slack of room EQ. I do have a separate Antimode EQ just for my sub which is the most important speaker for EQ I reckon. But basically my centre just needs to be further from the floor as even a thick rug makes no difference (it's just an acoustic/distance issue).
PMCs, used to spend a lot of time in studios, so know them well. Great speakers. Really true sound on them.
Hadn't heard of your Arcam, but looked it up, must say it looks stunning.
I'm sure that music must sound amazing on your setup.
Audyssey, was this recently?
I think you need to give it another crack. The last couple of years the system has come on leaps and bounds.
I agree it was very crude and hit and miss (I had an onkyo 607), and not surprised if it damaged your sub's driver.
I've no doubt a more recent amp would sort your centre speaker problems. Something with pre outs so you can still use the Arcam for music?
I knew my speakers would obviously work well together. But after calibration, The sound stage is immersive and precise, exactly what I was looking for. (currently running an Onkyo 809).
To the OP, sorry to take over your thread, but hopefully the conversation shows that your decision should be influenced by what you need your system to do.
Hadn't heard of your Arcam, but looked it up, must say it looks stunning.
I'm sure that music must sound amazing on your setup.
Audyssey, was this recently?
I think you need to give it another crack. The last couple of years the system has come on leaps and bounds.
I agree it was very crude and hit and miss (I had an onkyo 607), and not surprised if it damaged your sub's driver.
I've no doubt a more recent amp would sort your centre speaker problems. Something with pre outs so you can still use the Arcam for music?
I knew my speakers would obviously work well together. But after calibration, The sound stage is immersive and precise, exactly what I was looking for. (currently running an Onkyo 809).
To the OP, sorry to take over your thread, but hopefully the conversation shows that your decision should be influenced by what you need your system to do.
It was a Denon AVR2808 that had Audyssey that damaged my sub so a few years ago. I sold it for £400 (only £50 less than I paid for it) and bought the AV9 for £800 (£3,500 when new), plus the separate power amps I also picked up used. PMC are often combined with Arcam amps, though if I really felt flush Bryston (with 20 year warranties!) would be on my demo list.
I've considered changing the AV9 for another more current Pre Processor, but the later version of my AV9 is the AV888 which I believe is over £4k. I'd rather keep the AV9 since it sounds so good with stereo (and films too now that I'm using the phantom centre). I'm upgrading my Monolith sub for a 15 or 18" sealed sub which is going to be around 2k so I can't justify replacing the AV9 if it'll take another 4k to improve on it. I love my AV gear, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
One day an AV888 will turn up cheaply in the classifieds and I'll snap it up: I've learnt to buy behind the curve to get better VFM.
Better IMHO to resolve the sound issue by moving the speaker than using EQ. I've heard some more current AV receivers and IMHO they just don't sound as good on music, so that AV/music balance is still hard to achieve IMHO. It would just be too complicated to have the AV9 and a separate AV amp as well: When I had the 2808 I also had a NAD C350 stereo amp drving the front speakers and it was too much faffing about, hence the one box (if you ignore the two powers amps linked to it) AV9 solution.
Also apologies to the OP for more off topic discussion.
I've considered changing the AV9 for another more current Pre Processor, but the later version of my AV9 is the AV888 which I believe is over £4k. I'd rather keep the AV9 since it sounds so good with stereo (and films too now that I'm using the phantom centre). I'm upgrading my Monolith sub for a 15 or 18" sealed sub which is going to be around 2k so I can't justify replacing the AV9 if it'll take another 4k to improve on it. I love my AV gear, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
One day an AV888 will turn up cheaply in the classifieds and I'll snap it up: I've learnt to buy behind the curve to get better VFM. Better IMHO to resolve the sound issue by moving the speaker than using EQ. I've heard some more current AV receivers and IMHO they just don't sound as good on music, so that AV/music balance is still hard to achieve IMHO. It would just be too complicated to have the AV9 and a separate AV amp as well: When I had the 2808 I also had a NAD C350 stereo amp drving the front speakers and it was too much faffing about, hence the one box (if you ignore the two powers amps linked to it) AV9 solution.
Also apologies to the OP for more off topic discussion.
To be fair when I looked on the B&W site and saw the size of the CM9 and either centre they offered I wondered if it would be worth pairing an obviously different centre with such fine main speakers. Otherwise I fear that the OP will just end up with an annoying mismatch. I'd strongly suggest a home demo to confirm if the result is what he is happy with and expects since I imagine neither option is particularly cheap.
Perhaps it's just me but IMHO perfectly matching fronts (ie the SAME speakers) just sound so much better and the front soundstage doesn't sound like 3 separate speakers. I hate that effect when a sound travels across from one side to another and changes (usually 'thinner' sounding or sometimes 'boxy') as it passes through the middle. Even though mine are perfectly matched (same speaker drivers and cabinet size, just the grille is mounted so it can be placed horizontally for the centre) I've still resorted to phantom centre until I can relocate the centre away from the floor due to the colouration to the sound at higher levels. Maybe it is just me...
Perhaps it's just me but IMHO perfectly matching fronts (ie the SAME speakers) just sound so much better and the front soundstage doesn't sound like 3 separate speakers. I hate that effect when a sound travels across from one side to another and changes (usually 'thinner' sounding or sometimes 'boxy') as it passes through the middle. Even though mine are perfectly matched (same speaker drivers and cabinet size, just the grille is mounted so it can be placed horizontally for the centre) I've still resorted to phantom centre until I can relocate the centre away from the floor due to the colouration to the sound at higher levels. Maybe it is just me...
There are a lot of quality points above and things that I have not considered or looked into. I will need to absorb and research... the subs especially.
With respect to the centre speaker. I do not like the idea of having a centre speaker and I completely agree that having a small speaker for the vocals is silly. I do not mind even running a 4.1 system. 2 CM9s and 2 CM1s as rears with one of the sub you nice folks are mentioning. Is this what a phantom centre speaker is? Sorry I do not get the term... ;(
With respect to the centre speaker. I do not like the idea of having a centre speaker and I completely agree that having a small speaker for the vocals is silly. I do not mind even running a 4.1 system. 2 CM9s and 2 CM1s as rears with one of the sub you nice folks are mentioning. Is this what a phantom centre speaker is? Sorry I do not get the term... ;(
Yes, that's exactly what phantom centre means. You end up with 4.1 (or maybe 6.1 which is what I'm currently running). No harm in trying it and then getting a centre later if you think it adds something (but home demo if possible since poor placement of a centre like mine can still spoil a well matched speaker).
I've just replied to a post over on AVForums as there is someone who already has a CM centre and CM9 fronts with a different amp (Arcam AVR600). He is having problems with dialogue being overwhelmed by other sounds and general lack of clarity of dialogue. I've suggested that he tries the phantom centre mode to see if it works better. If he tries it I'll let you know what he says.
EDIT: Turns out he got rid of them (just hadn't updated his profile) so I don't know if that says anything about combining CM9s and CM centre or whether he just had a case up upgraditus.
EDIT: Turns out he got rid of them (just hadn't updated his profile) so I don't know if that says anything about combining CM9s and CM centre or whether he just had a case up upgraditus.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Thursday 28th March 20:32
Lostprophet said:
Hi,
I am considering buying a LX86 towards the end of this year. I am looking around at speaker set ups. I currently have a pair of B&W 602S3 which sound fab to me. They will be my fronts until I can afford to replace them with CM9s. I plan to have CM1 as rear speakers and a CM centre speak too at some stage. I am unsure of what sub to go for.
I did think about the MA Apex however thought a free standing speaker as fronts would be better.
I will demo the set-up but it would be good to have some recommendations on my approach or other recommendations.
Kind regards,
LP
I have CM8 fronts and CM1 rears powered by the LX55... trust me you need the CMC2 centre. For subs, look no further than the Velodyne range. I am considering buying a LX86 towards the end of this year. I am looking around at speaker set ups. I currently have a pair of B&W 602S3 which sound fab to me. They will be my fronts until I can afford to replace them with CM9s. I plan to have CM1 as rear speakers and a CM centre speak too at some stage. I am unsure of what sub to go for.
I did think about the MA Apex however thought a free standing speaker as fronts would be better.
I will demo the set-up but it would be good to have some recommendations on my approach or other recommendations.
Kind regards,
LP
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