renault and peugeot going bust?
Discussion
te for too long.(a) Renault owns a massive portion of Nissan. Renault could give up making cars and still turn a healthy profit.
http://www.renault.com/fr/Finance/marche-de-capita...
(b) PSA aren't doing brilliantly this year, but they are restructuring and actually fundamentally not in bad shape. They are supplying BMW and Ford with engines and the like, which isn't the sort of thing dead ducks get into.
C
http://www.renault.com/fr/Finance/marche-de-capita...
(b) PSA aren't doing brilliantly this year, but they are restructuring and actually fundamentally not in bad shape. They are supplying BMW and Ford with engines and the like, which isn't the sort of thing dead ducks get into.
C
I've posted about this before.
Both are in fundamental trouble. They used to sell a broad range of mid-price cars to Europeans, and now that market has gone away, especially in terms of anything bigger than a hatchback. It's polarised into budget or premium with nowt in between. It's been coming for a while. To pick out one example, I guess you can think of this as the 'Vauxhall Omega problem'.
Renault have Dacia to help them with the budget aspect. I don't know what they're doing about the premium, if anything, and I certainly don't know what PSAC are doing about either.
Look at what Fiat Group are doing for a good answer to the problem, and they're forearmed with the right set of brands and tech. Even then it's ambitious.
Both are in fundamental trouble. They used to sell a broad range of mid-price cars to Europeans, and now that market has gone away, especially in terms of anything bigger than a hatchback. It's polarised into budget or premium with nowt in between. It's been coming for a while. To pick out one example, I guess you can think of this as the 'Vauxhall Omega problem'.
Renault have Dacia to help them with the budget aspect. I don't know what they're doing about the premium, if anything, and I certainly don't know what PSAC are doing about either.
Look at what Fiat Group are doing for a good answer to the problem, and they're forearmed with the right set of brands and tech. Even then it's ambitious.
SO many UK-centric thoughts on this thread.
PSA is the EU's second largest carmaker after VW group. They will be selling >50% of their product outside of the EU in 18 months time (it's about 40% at the moment) so whether or not their new UK cars are a hit or not makes bugger all difference.
C
PSA is the EU's second largest carmaker after VW group. They will be selling >50% of their product outside of the EU in 18 months time (it's about 40% at the moment) so whether or not their new UK cars are a hit or not makes bugger all difference.
C
CraigyMc said:
SO many UK-centric thoughts on this thread.
There's not a single UK-centric comment on the thread.VW Group have China, although they're selling their Euro cars at a loss AFAIK. Fiat Group have access to North America through Chrysler, and success on their own in countries like Brazil. The Koreans are getting feet in the door everywhere as well, adding further pressure to the Euro pressure cooker, and the recession's not over either.
Here's the plan: http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/media/press-...
So fine, PSA are expanding out into new markets, but so is everyone. They're also meant to be going upmarket (DS), but so is everyone. The products don't punch above their weight and I'd think the brand has limited value. Of all the manufacturers, except maybe GM, I think they have the least compelling portfolio to build on. I know they looked at collaboration with other manufacturers like Fiat, but what's in it for the other party?
As an illustration, let's compare them with Fiat. Same historical problem. Fiat have stuff at the low end, like the 500 and Panda, plus multifuel cars in South America. They don't really have anything in the squeezed middle any more - it would have once been Bravo, Croma etc, but it's all gone. They have Alfa to build on, plus Maserati and at a push Ferrari to leverage downwards in the premium sense. Add to that Chrysler and Jeep. Admittedly trying to inflate those brands back to massive production will be hard, and also the primary aim is competing with the Germans: tough. They have manufacturing capacity. As I said, they have access to America through Chrysler and its brands, plus existing presence in APAC. They have platforms to economically share, including with other manufacturers (GM, Mazda). They have group profit and liquidity, VEBA being a potential headache. They have a CEO with a good track record. Overall, interesting times, but not bad.
Tell me the same about Renault or PSA.
Edited by trashbat on Sunday 14th April 22:48
These official sales figures for the French motor industry, published in an authoritative industry manual, provide chilling reading for the last three years:
2010 2011 2012
Renault 469,404 646,251 529,845
Peugeot 708,509 775,214 621,458
Citroen 576,632 562,432 491,725
- and they say the decline is getting steeper. Renault has bet the farm on electric cars, yet the public has rejected them.
2010 2011 2012
Renault 469,404 646,251 529,845
Peugeot 708,509 775,214 621,458
Citroen 576,632 562,432 491,725
- and they say the decline is getting steeper. Renault has bet the farm on electric cars, yet the public has rejected them.
CraigyMc said:
(b) PSA aren't doing brilliantly this year, but they are restructuring and actually fundamentally not in bad shape. They are supplying BMW and Ford with engines and the like, which isn't the sort of thing dead ducks get into.
C
Actually it's two way traffic. Ford is building a colossal quantity of 1.5-litre diesel engines every week, the majority of which go to Peugeot-Citroen. If you don't believe me, blag a trip around the colossal Dagenham facility (which has a capacity of 1 million engines a year) to find this confirmed.C
AAGR said:
These official sales figures for the French motor industry, published in an authoritative industry manual, provide chilling reading for the last three years:
2010 2011 2012
Renault 469,404 646,251 529,845
Peugeot 708,509 775,214 621,458
Citroen 576,632 562,432 491,725
- and they say the decline is getting steeper. Renault has bet the farm on electric cars, yet the public has rejected them.
Those figures seem to indicate Renault had a bad year, a good year then another bad year. I'm surprised it's not more of a uniform downward trend TBH. 2010 2011 2012
Renault 469,404 646,251 529,845
Peugeot 708,509 775,214 621,458
Citroen 576,632 562,432 491,725
- and they say the decline is getting steeper. Renault has bet the farm on electric cars, yet the public has rejected them.
Johnnytheboy said:
AAGR said:
These official sales figures for the French motor industry, published in an authoritative industry manual, provide chilling reading for the last three years:
2010 2011 2012
Renault 469,404 646,251 529,845
Peugeot 708,509 775,214 621,458
Citroen 576,632 562,432 491,725
- and they say the decline is getting steeper. Renault has bet the farm on electric cars, yet the public has rejected them.
Those figures seem to indicate Renault had a bad year, a good year then another bad year. I'm surprised it's not more of a uniform downward trend TBH. 2010 2011 2012
Renault 469,404 646,251 529,845
Peugeot 708,509 775,214 621,458
Citroen 576,632 562,432 491,725
- and they say the decline is getting steeper. Renault has bet the farm on electric cars, yet the public has rejected them.
C
Butter Face said:
Have Renault 'bet the farm' on EV?
Er, no. They still have a conventional car range. The EV sits alongside it, they also have the Dacia brand which is doing very well in the UK and Europe.
This is the sort of UK-centric stuff I was talking about. The UK model range was slashed last year. It's still the same elsewhere.Er, no. They still have a conventional car range. The EV sits alongside it, they also have the Dacia brand which is doing very well in the UK and Europe.
It's like people look at the EU and think "this is the ballgame", when in fact the ballgame is Asia. The EU is less relevant than it was, and China/Asia are far more relevant.
China alone is the world's most important car market. Get it right there, and you will make money.
C
Butter Face said:
Have Renault 'bet the farm' on EV?
Er, no. They still have a conventional car range. The EV sits alongside it, they also have the Dacia brand which is doing very well in the UK and Europe.
...but like all car makers their development resources will be finite and it would appear (from my UK-centric outlook) that Renault spend more time and money developing EVs than other comparable manufacturers.Er, no. They still have a conventional car range. The EV sits alongside it, they also have the Dacia brand which is doing very well in the UK and Europe.
Clearly if they are right to do so, it's going to work out just fine for them.
Johnnytheboy said:
Butter Face said:
Have Renault 'bet the farm' on EV?
Er, no. They still have a conventional car range. The EV sits alongside it, they also have the Dacia brand which is doing very well in the UK and Europe.
...but like all car makers their development resources will be finite and it would appear (from my UK-centric outlook) that Renault spend more time and money developing EVs than other comparable manufacturers.Er, no. They still have a conventional car range. The EV sits alongside it, they also have the Dacia brand which is doing very well in the UK and Europe.
Clearly if they are right to do so, it's going to work out just fine for them.
They're not going to go bust over it, they're not going to sell millions right now but they will sell.
People thought Toyota were mad selling hybrids, now they have 4 hybrids in the range and the Lexus range of hybrids. Doesn't stop them selling cars.....
I'm actually driving the Renault Zoe tomorrow. I think it's a fantastic car.
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