RE: Let the 205 lie: PH Blog
Thursday 4th April 2013
You could have predicted it. Through 206 and 207, and now with the 208, Peugeot has sought desperately to recapture the magic of a car whose success took it somewhat by surprise back in the 80s. It never has. And the 208 GTI is no new-age 205.
205 was great, but its time has passedWhat made the 205 great was its rawness, its physicality. The paper-thin metal and plastics, the free-breathing engine, the lack of damping or electronics between driver and machinery. It wasn't the lift-off oversteer that made the 205 so enjoyable per se; it was the way you could feel, adjust and control it. Modern hot hatches have the capacity to be enormous fun, but in a different way. And we should be keeping that in our minds, front-centre, rather than harking back to times past.
Let the 205 lie: PH Blog
The credibility gap twixt 205 and 208 GTI was one Peugeot was never going to bridge - so why try?
That shouldn't come as a great surprise. Modern cars simply have to be built to different, and often better, standards than they were way back when. Recapturing the magic of the 205 GTI was never going to be possible.
205 was great, but its time has passed
That's a lesson Peugeot would do well to learn. The appearance of an immaculate 205 on the 208 GTI's launch event over in France showed that the company desperately wants to link its new baby back to its glorious past. Likewise the nods to the 205 in some of the new car's badging and styling cues. Mistake. It instantly raised expectations that stood no chance of being met.
So it's time for us all to draw a line under the 205 GTI. The sooner we do that, the happier we'll be - and the more likely we are to appreciate its successors on their own merit.
Alex
Discussion
Shirley the vast majority of the blame lies with the motoring press. For the weeks and months leading up to the launch of the 208 GTI nearly every article concerning the 208 couldn't help but mention the 205 and how the 208 was hopefully/definitely/unlikely/couldn't possibly live up to it Grand Daddy the 205 GTI. Obviously its a natural comparison to compare a car to its predecessor but don't now scold us for making the same comparisons.
gambisk said:
Shirley the vast majority of the blame lies with the motoring press. For the weeks and months leading up to the launch of the 208 GTI nearly every article concerning the 208 couldn't help but mention the 205 and how the 208 was hopefully/definitely/unlikely/couldn't possibly live up to it Grand Daddy the 205 GTI. Obviously its a natural comparison to compare a car to its predecessor but don't now scold us for making the same comparisons.
A valid argument, but when Peugeot builds these cars up to be 'the next 205' in such a way themselves, can you blame us? My point was that by feeding the rhetoric, expectations are built up that simply can't be met. If a manufacturer, in 2013, released a hot-hatch that handled like the 205 did, the Daily Mail would probably go into meltdown. As I read in the motoring bit of the Sunday Times, the 208 GTi is a GTi for people that owned the 205 GTi in their 20's, but are now in their 40's and want something a bit more...safe. It's called progress, allegedly.
Absolutely agreed. Modern expectations of quality, comfort, safety and equipment almost completely preclude another 205. They could always take the old Rallye principle and offer a stripped-down hardcore version, a la Renaultsport, but those cars are often criticised as being overpriced and having miserable ride quality, and they are rather more serious than the notional classic 'hot hatch'.
The modern iteration of the hot hatch is one of the most versatile and well-rounded consumer vehicles ever created - they tick most boxes for most people, and even give a nod to enthusiasts, despite us being a relatively small slice of the demographic pie. The charming simplicity of the 205 GTI can't be relived, and Peugeot and the press ought to present and judge it (respectively) by its own merits.
Don't get me wrong - personally I'd have a mint 205 GTI over the 208 in a heartbeat. But they have different aims, and we have to be realistic.
The modern iteration of the hot hatch is one of the most versatile and well-rounded consumer vehicles ever created - they tick most boxes for most people, and even give a nod to enthusiasts, despite us being a relatively small slice of the demographic pie. The charming simplicity of the 205 GTI can't be relived, and Peugeot and the press ought to present and judge it (respectively) by its own merits.
Don't get me wrong - personally I'd have a mint 205 GTI over the 208 in a heartbeat. But they have different aims, and we have to be realistic.
Classic cars are to be enjoyed for what they are, they will never be replicated. I wonder if people were so against technology in the 30's 40's 50's etc. As good as the 205 gti was I would hate to be involved in a collision in one.
Manual gearboxes seem to be a real sticking point, but do people still hanker for cross ply tyres, starting handles, no seat belts, and unreliable engines. Automatic gearboxes seem the future as demonstrated by motor sport yet it would seem the majority are dead against it.
As much as the extra feel that non power assisted steering, non abs brakes, and manual gearboxes offer the future is changing and therefore we need to enjoy the older cars for what they offer and embrace new technology for what it offers .
I believe the problem lies in that many PHers are confident useful drivers who know how to control a car but market forces dictate that the majority of cars bought are by people who want nice safe fast easy to drive cars and therefore that is what the manufacturers must make to stay in business.
Manual gearboxes seem to be a real sticking point, but do people still hanker for cross ply tyres, starting handles, no seat belts, and unreliable engines. Automatic gearboxes seem the future as demonstrated by motor sport yet it would seem the majority are dead against it.
As much as the extra feel that non power assisted steering, non abs brakes, and manual gearboxes offer the future is changing and therefore we need to enjoy the older cars for what they offer and embrace new technology for what it offers .
I believe the problem lies in that many PHers are confident useful drivers who know how to control a car but market forces dictate that the majority of cars bought are by people who want nice safe fast easy to drive cars and therefore that is what the manufacturers must make to stay in business.
johnycarrera said:
I must have missed the 208 in the "driven" section. I'm not implying it will be any where near as good but I take it loads of folk have driven it and its rubbish?
Link to driven was in the story, and is also hereShambler said:
I believe the problem lies in that many PHers are confident useful drivers who know how to control a car but market forces dictate that the majority of cars bought are by people who want nice safe fast easy to drive cars and therefore that is what the manufacturers must make to stay in business.
We have to accept that. We don't have to like it. Peugeot could build a car in the mould of the 205 GTi if they wanted to - assuming that the 1.6 turbo in 156bhp or 200bhp form could be shoehorned into the 107. Whether there is a business case for doing so is another matter entirely.
I think The Crack Fox has got it, to recreate the 205 GTi now it would have to be more like the Focus RS / Megane 265 except quicker and cheaper.
When the 1.9 was released in 1986 it was road tested alongside Lotus Esprits and all manner of other high end sports cars. There was no competition for it in the hot hatch segment. With 0-60 dispatched in 7.6 seconds, kerb weight of 910 kg, 130mph top speed and razor sharp handling it could outperform machinery 10 times its meager list price.
This was 1986, the fastest production car in the world only did 195mph (Porsche 959). The E30 BMW M3 was only 0.7 seconds or 10% quicker to 60. Imagine a hot hatch now, about the price of a RenaultSport Twingo that was only 10% slower than an E90 M3 in acceleration (so 0-60 in 5 secs) and damn near as quick on track, oh and with better steering and possibly even wilder lift off oversteer. There were stockbrokers with Bentleys on their drives hooning around the home counties on their way to work in them, there was nothing else to touch them for fun even near to their price.
Peugeot can never and will never recreate the 205 GTi. If they brought out a car with identical stats and even went back to non power assisted steering (not going to happen) it wouldn't do it because it would be f
king slow, the world has moved on.
When the 1.9 was released in 1986 it was road tested alongside Lotus Esprits and all manner of other high end sports cars. There was no competition for it in the hot hatch segment. With 0-60 dispatched in 7.6 seconds, kerb weight of 910 kg, 130mph top speed and razor sharp handling it could outperform machinery 10 times its meager list price.
This was 1986, the fastest production car in the world only did 195mph (Porsche 959). The E30 BMW M3 was only 0.7 seconds or 10% quicker to 60. Imagine a hot hatch now, about the price of a RenaultSport Twingo that was only 10% slower than an E90 M3 in acceleration (so 0-60 in 5 secs) and damn near as quick on track, oh and with better steering and possibly even wilder lift off oversteer. There were stockbrokers with Bentleys on their drives hooning around the home counties on their way to work in them, there was nothing else to touch them for fun even near to their price.
Peugeot can never and will never recreate the 205 GTi. If they brought out a car with identical stats and even went back to non power assisted steering (not going to happen) it wouldn't do it because it would be f
king slow, the world has moved on.SimonSaid said:
Absolutely agreed. Modern expectations of quality, comfort, safety and equipment almost completely preclude another 205. They could always take the old Rallye principle and offer a stripped-down hardcore version, a la Renaultsport, but those cars are often criticised as being overpriced and having miserable ride quality, and they are rather more serious than the notional classic 'hot hatch'.
The modern iteration of the hot hatch is one of the most versatile and well-rounded consumer vehicles ever created - they tick most boxes for most people, and even give a nod to enthusiasts, despite us being a relatively small slice of the demographic pie. The charming simplicity of the 205 GTI can't be relived, and Peugeot and the press ought to present and judge it (respectively) by its own merits.
Don't get me wrong - personally I'd have a mint 205 GTI over the 208 in a heartbeat. But they have different aims, and we have to be realistic.
Eloquently put sir - I totally agree in every regard.The modern iteration of the hot hatch is one of the most versatile and well-rounded consumer vehicles ever created - they tick most boxes for most people, and even give a nod to enthusiasts, despite us being a relatively small slice of the demographic pie. The charming simplicity of the 205 GTI can't be relived, and Peugeot and the press ought to present and judge it (respectively) by its own merits.
Don't get me wrong - personally I'd have a mint 205 GTI over the 208 in a heartbeat. But they have different aims, and we have to be realistic.
MiseryStreak said:
Peugeot can never and will never recreate the 205 GTi. If they brought out a car with identical stats and even went back to non power assisted steering (not going to happen) it wouldn't do it because it would be fking slow, the world has moved on.
The problem is not so much that it would be slow and more that it would be perceived as slow by people who would miss the point. See endless GT86/BRZ threads. The mass appeal at the time may have been that they were cheap and fast, but the reason those early hot hatches have something that modern ones don't is that as the weight, power and performance have increased, something has been lost.king slow, the world has moved on.A 107GTi coming in at less than 1000kg and with 160-200bhp would be more than quick enough for purpose (and power steering is an option on the 107) but whether there would be a significant market for it is questionable. Kids couldn't insure it, older buyers might think they need something bigger and more luxurious and people would expect it to cost peanuts.
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