Does British Motor Sport Need F1
Discussion
with all the continued rumblings over the British GP, Do we really need it, would the rest of uk motorsport actually benifit if there was no British GP..
Currently it seems to suck all the funding, makes the BRDC lurch from one crisis to the next, and the entire uk msport calendar seems to be at the whim of BE. IF he d3ecides to move the Gp at the last minuite then everything else gets re-scheduled around it...
Look at the money spent on silverstone, i mean building a by-pass to allow quicker access for 1 weekend a year.. the government money wanted to build new f1 facilities...
wouldnt the money be better spent at the rest of the uk circuits.. Imagine how much difference 1 million a pop would make to places like cadwell and mallory ect... or even a tenner at lydden.
With the money silverstone does get all they seem to do is build some more fences and another car park !!!!
If there was no British GP, would it promote another event to the headline like GT or Touring cars with the resultant influx of funding that might just might flow down a bit further.
With these series visiting more than just one circuit would we then see an improvment in the facilities at all uk circuit not just one..
Sorry for the ramble but im just getting fed up with the F1 circus and the constant will it wont it for the GP.
G
Currently it seems to suck all the funding, makes the BRDC lurch from one crisis to the next, and the entire uk msport calendar seems to be at the whim of BE. IF he d3ecides to move the Gp at the last minuite then everything else gets re-scheduled around it...
Look at the money spent on silverstone, i mean building a by-pass to allow quicker access for 1 weekend a year.. the government money wanted to build new f1 facilities...
wouldnt the money be better spent at the rest of the uk circuits.. Imagine how much difference 1 million a pop would make to places like cadwell and mallory ect... or even a tenner at lydden.
With the money silverstone does get all they seem to do is build some more fences and another car park !!!!
If there was no British GP, would it promote another event to the headline like GT or Touring cars with the resultant influx of funding that might just might flow down a bit further.
With these series visiting more than just one circuit would we then see an improvment in the facilities at all uk circuit not just one..
Sorry for the ramble but im just getting fed up with the F1 circus and the constant will it wont it for the GP.
G
I honestly don't care anymore.
And I feel sad about that. Through some of the clients and employers I have had over the years I have been lucky enough to tavel to many GP's - usually in a helicopter and with the full-on hospitality and paddock passes.
I've even had lunch in the Williams motorhome with Heinz Harald Frentzen.
And I can honestly say that F1 now bores me.
Its not the team's fault. They are doing their best within the rules allowed and the finance they have available.
I blame :
1. Bernie for hogging the whole thing as his personal fiefdom .
2. The rule makers for allowing such dull cars to be the norm - and I guess for bending to the demands of a few petulent teams who rig the rules to suit them and their budgets.
3. James Allen.
4.. James Allen.
5. Bernie , again.
And I feel sad about that. Through some of the clients and employers I have had over the years I have been lucky enough to tavel to many GP's - usually in a helicopter and with the full-on hospitality and paddock passes.
I've even had lunch in the Williams motorhome with Heinz Harald Frentzen.
And I can honestly say that F1 now bores me.
Its not the team's fault. They are doing their best within the rules allowed and the finance they have available.
I blame :
1. Bernie for hogging the whole thing as his personal fiefdom .
2. The rule makers for allowing such dull cars to be the norm - and I guess for bending to the demands of a few petulent teams who rig the rules to suit them and their budgets.
3. James Allen.
4.. James Allen.
5. Bernie , again.
toppstuff said:I've been reading your posts for a while now toppstuff, and I must say I was starting to like you and look forward to meeting you one day until I read the above.
Through some of the clients and employers I have had over the years I have been lucky enough to tavel to many GP's - usually in a helicopter and with the full-on hospitality and paddock passes.
I've even had lunch in the Williams motorhome with Heinz Harald Frentzen.
(Not that jealousy has anything to do with it, you understand.
) >> Edited by JonRB on Monday 27th September 11:06
JonRB said:
Through some of the clients and employers I have had over the years I have been lucky enough to tavel to many GP's - usually in a helicopter and with the full-on hospitality and paddock passes.
I've even had lunch in the Williams motorhome with Heinz Harald Frentzen.
I've been reading your posts for a while now toppstuff, and I must say I was starting to like you and look forward to meeting you one day until I read the above.
(Not that jealousy has anything to do with it, you understand.
>> Edited by JonRB on Monday 27th September 11:06
It was a tough job but someone had to do it. HHF is funny guy too. He drove me round Donnington Park once in a Renault Spider !
Sideways through the craner curves..
CharlieAlpha66 said:
I blame :
3. James Allen.
4.. James Allen.
James Allen
Best GP of this year was Spa, because I watched it in Spain, alternating between Spanish and German satellite feeds, and even though I could not understand the commentators, I did not have to listen to James "Let's go .....................RACING" Allen!
Graham said:
with all the continued rumblings over the British GP, Do we really need it, would the rest of uk motorsport actually benifit if there was no British GP..
I think yes, this country does need F1 but I'm not sure I can substantiate my argument well, but I'll have a go to your points/questions below....
Graham said:
Currently it seems to suck all the funding, makes the BRDC lurch from one crisis to the next, and the entire uk msport calendar seems to be at the whim of BE. IF he d3ecides to move the Gp at the last minuite then everything else gets re-scheduled around it...
The problems at Silverstone don't stem entirely from the BRDC. If you recall your history a certain lady owner of a circuit in Kent decided to do a deal with a certain man to get the contract for the GP. The deal that she did moved the ball into a field that nobody else wanted to play in because the stakes were too high in real terms the amount paid under the contract and the terms of the contract (ie giving up the hospitality revenue from the circuit) was too high. It would have been financial suicide for the BRDC to play that game (which cyncical people may suggest was what some people wanted). The BRDC chose to accept the fixed revenue by leasing the circuit to (ultimately) Octagon....the rest is of course current history.
I'm not entirely aware that much UK motorsport is planned around F1 unless it concerns a meeting that is planned at Silverstone which is, I think, what happened this year or last year. Mainly domestic motorsport is more influenced by Le Mans than F1.
Graham said:
Look at the money spent on silverstone, i mean building a by-pass to allow quicker access for 1 weekend a year.. the government money wanted to build new f1 facilities...
I don't think that the bypass was built just for the GP but yes clearly it was influenced by the money brought into the area during that weekend.
Graham said:
wouldnt the money be better spent at the rest of the uk circuits.. Imagine how much difference 1 million a pop would make to places like cadwell and mallory ect... or even a tenner at lydden.
Nice idea but the equation of no GP at Silverstone doesn't automatically equal more money for the other circuits.
Graham said:
With the money silverstone does get all they seem to do is build some more fences and another car park !!!!
That's 'cos modern F1 demands enough carparking and it would be daft not to move with the times. Has Silverstone increased fencing significantly over the last 5/6 years?
Graham said:
If there was no British GP, would it promote another event to the headline like GT or Touring cars with the resultant influx of funding that might just might flow down a bit further.
Why would it? Many people who watch F1 have no concept of any other form of motorsport, the glory seekers would be likely to support another high profile sport rather than down grade their expectation. Again I can't see the link between no GP and extra funding and promotion of other series.
Graham said:
With these series visiting more than just one circuit would we then see an improvment in the facilities at all uk circuit not just one..
Again I can't see that in reality there is a link.
Graham said:
Sorry for the ramble but im just getting fed up with the F1 circus and the constant will it wont it for the GP.
G
IMO, F1 has very little to do with domestic motorsport but it has a brand profile that many companies would die for. Track days at Silverstone do well because punters like to drive the same track that F1 drives on (they don't necc understand that there are different tracks!!!). Silverstone runs a number of test days per year which bring in revenue, without a F1 circuit licence they would be unable to do this.
The investement put in by F1 teams running out of Motorsport Valley is huge - just consider the size of Maclaren's investment around Woking. Those teams give opportunities to develop technology and are a breeding ground for engineers who often go on to work within domestic (and international motorsport). It is questionable whether the motorsport economy of the country could be sustained without F1.
I'm sure there's more but much as I think F1 is over hyped, overated and stage managed we'd be worse off without it.
Discuss.........
>> Edited by Piglet on Monday 27th September 17:30
>> Edited by Piglet on Monday 27th September 17:31
I suppose it was inevitable that this discussion would get around to Silverstone, and if any of you can be bothered to read it all, here is something I wrote last year. It isn't entirely up to date, but answers some of the questions which have been raised - as fairly as possible.
There is so much misinformation flying around that an attempt to get at the truth might be helpful. The more questions which result from my dissertation the better. That's what discussion is all about!
Getting down to the financial nitty gritty I better run through the history of the GP, because without it the story is meaningless. Just after WW2 the BRDC were able to lease Silverstone from the MOD and use it for racing - club events with a lot of British clubs, and then the GP as well. The RAC was the FIA-designated organisation who had the right to the GP, but they delegated that reponsibility to the BRDC because the BRDC had the know-how plus the only suitable circuit in Britain. The GP continued at Silverstone as the years went by, and between 1955 and 1962 the race alternated between Silverstone and Aintree. Then between 1964 and 1986 the GP alternated between Silverstone and Brands Hatch, returning to a permanent home at Silverstone in 1987.
I should mention that the club was given the opportunity to buy Silverstone from the MOD in 1971 (instead of leasing it), and managed to scrape together enough money to pay for it.
From 1948 onwards every spare penny earned by the BRDC was spent on maintaining and improving the circuit, helping young drivers with various award schemes, maintaining a benevolent fund to help families of drivers killed in accidents and drivers facing poverty in their old age, and contributing to various other causes. At the same time Silverstone itself was developed into a small industrial estate, and every potential diversity was explored, and implemented where possible. I emphasize that the membership took nothing out of all this, and indeed they often made voluntary donations over and above their subscriptions.
By 1999 FOM’s fee for the Grand Prix at Silverstone had risen to £5,000,000 and all the advertising and television rights went to FOM too, so the club’s only income was from ticket sales (FOM is Bernie Ecclestone’s Formula One Management company). Little wonder then that the GP became a loss-making excercise, draining BRDC finances to the limit. Despite this, improvements continued, but not at the rate the club would have wished.
Then came the crunch. BHL (Nicola Foulston’s Brands Hatch Leisure) offered FOM a huge increase for the race (rumoured to be £10,000,000) and there was no way the BRDC could match it. Result? The GP was assigned to Brands Hatch, and they set out to bring their circuit up to F1 standard. Surprisingly, BHL then decided to sell up, and they sold Brands Hatch, plus their other circuits, to IPG (an American multi-national valued at $6 billion). The sale included the rights to the British GP at the annual fee already agreed with FOM. Unfortunately IPG then discovered that they couldn’t bring Brands Hatch up to standard, thanks to planning and other difficulties. So what were they to do?
With the consent of FOM they went to the BRDC and negotiated a lease of Silverstone circuit for a period up to 15 years. At the same time IPG, FOM and BRDC jointly agreed to spend £40,000,000 on improvements to bring Silverstone up to the standard required by FOM. Great! Until IPG suddenly decided they wanted out of their British motorsport commitments and sold all their circuits. They then decided they would like to withdraw from their Silverstone commitment too. Back to square one! At this point FOM started making noises about the BRDC’s unwillingness to improve Silverstone, suggesting that the club should find £50,000,000 for upgrades. Put bluntly “unless you finance our required improvements you’re out”. No British Grand prix then?
That is why Jackie Stewart went to the government for help. What else could he do? There may be a few very rich men at the ‘figurehead’ end of the BRDC, but there aren’t enough to find £50,000,000 in a hundred years. If I was advising the club I would say “no, don’t you realise that you can’t borrow the money? No bank would look at such a risky proposition. The rights to the GP could be removed tomorrow, F1 might collapse tomorrow, etc etc”. Fortunately the club doesn’t need advice. Despite what has been said in various posts the BRDC is run by some very competent and successful businessmen who give their time free of charge because they are enthusiasts, and because they respect the ethos of the club. They don’t need to be told the obvious.
If the government agreed to help they would need a lot of guarantees, but perhaps the over-riding factor is the fragility of the British motorsports industry. Take away the GP and Silverstone and the heart of motor sport would gradually drift abroad. Our motor sport economy is reckoned to generate between £30,000,000 and £40,000,000 anually and 40,000 jobs are semi-dependent upon it. Over 2,000 small companies are involved, with an annual turnover of five billion pounds. Difficult, isn’t it? We’re talking about something a little more important than the price of a grandstand ticket.
I wouldn’t like to guess the cost of Bahrain or Sepang. £100,000,000 each? Plus they have to pay FOM an annual fee for a Grand Prix, now rumoured to be around £20,000,000. No club can afford that. It has to be a government job, just as it is in France, Germany, Hungary, Spain, Australia, Malaysia, and almost everywhere else. In the words of Jackie Stewart “We on the other hand are a private members’ club. A company registered as not-for-profit, and a club that has to look after its 850 members, run a race department and make contributions to young up and coming British drivers”.
That is the position as I understand it. I’m no expert, and others will no doubt pick holes in what I’ve said, but I don’t think the BRDC deserves criticism in this argument. Personally I hate the idea of government subsidy, but I can’t see any alternative.
>> Edited by McNab on Tuesday 28th September 17:32
There is so much misinformation flying around that an attempt to get at the truth might be helpful. The more questions which result from my dissertation the better. That's what discussion is all about!
Getting down to the financial nitty gritty I better run through the history of the GP, because without it the story is meaningless. Just after WW2 the BRDC were able to lease Silverstone from the MOD and use it for racing - club events with a lot of British clubs, and then the GP as well. The RAC was the FIA-designated organisation who had the right to the GP, but they delegated that reponsibility to the BRDC because the BRDC had the know-how plus the only suitable circuit in Britain. The GP continued at Silverstone as the years went by, and between 1955 and 1962 the race alternated between Silverstone and Aintree. Then between 1964 and 1986 the GP alternated between Silverstone and Brands Hatch, returning to a permanent home at Silverstone in 1987.
I should mention that the club was given the opportunity to buy Silverstone from the MOD in 1971 (instead of leasing it), and managed to scrape together enough money to pay for it.
From 1948 onwards every spare penny earned by the BRDC was spent on maintaining and improving the circuit, helping young drivers with various award schemes, maintaining a benevolent fund to help families of drivers killed in accidents and drivers facing poverty in their old age, and contributing to various other causes. At the same time Silverstone itself was developed into a small industrial estate, and every potential diversity was explored, and implemented where possible. I emphasize that the membership took nothing out of all this, and indeed they often made voluntary donations over and above their subscriptions.
By 1999 FOM’s fee for the Grand Prix at Silverstone had risen to £5,000,000 and all the advertising and television rights went to FOM too, so the club’s only income was from ticket sales (FOM is Bernie Ecclestone’s Formula One Management company). Little wonder then that the GP became a loss-making excercise, draining BRDC finances to the limit. Despite this, improvements continued, but not at the rate the club would have wished.
Then came the crunch. BHL (Nicola Foulston’s Brands Hatch Leisure) offered FOM a huge increase for the race (rumoured to be £10,000,000) and there was no way the BRDC could match it. Result? The GP was assigned to Brands Hatch, and they set out to bring their circuit up to F1 standard. Surprisingly, BHL then decided to sell up, and they sold Brands Hatch, plus their other circuits, to IPG (an American multi-national valued at $6 billion). The sale included the rights to the British GP at the annual fee already agreed with FOM. Unfortunately IPG then discovered that they couldn’t bring Brands Hatch up to standard, thanks to planning and other difficulties. So what were they to do?
With the consent of FOM they went to the BRDC and negotiated a lease of Silverstone circuit for a period up to 15 years. At the same time IPG, FOM and BRDC jointly agreed to spend £40,000,000 on improvements to bring Silverstone up to the standard required by FOM. Great! Until IPG suddenly decided they wanted out of their British motorsport commitments and sold all their circuits. They then decided they would like to withdraw from their Silverstone commitment too. Back to square one! At this point FOM started making noises about the BRDC’s unwillingness to improve Silverstone, suggesting that the club should find £50,000,000 for upgrades. Put bluntly “unless you finance our required improvements you’re out”. No British Grand prix then?
That is why Jackie Stewart went to the government for help. What else could he do? There may be a few very rich men at the ‘figurehead’ end of the BRDC, but there aren’t enough to find £50,000,000 in a hundred years. If I was advising the club I would say “no, don’t you realise that you can’t borrow the money? No bank would look at such a risky proposition. The rights to the GP could be removed tomorrow, F1 might collapse tomorrow, etc etc”. Fortunately the club doesn’t need advice. Despite what has been said in various posts the BRDC is run by some very competent and successful businessmen who give their time free of charge because they are enthusiasts, and because they respect the ethos of the club. They don’t need to be told the obvious.
If the government agreed to help they would need a lot of guarantees, but perhaps the over-riding factor is the fragility of the British motorsports industry. Take away the GP and Silverstone and the heart of motor sport would gradually drift abroad. Our motor sport economy is reckoned to generate between £30,000,000 and £40,000,000 anually and 40,000 jobs are semi-dependent upon it. Over 2,000 small companies are involved, with an annual turnover of five billion pounds. Difficult, isn’t it? We’re talking about something a little more important than the price of a grandstand ticket.
I wouldn’t like to guess the cost of Bahrain or Sepang. £100,000,000 each? Plus they have to pay FOM an annual fee for a Grand Prix, now rumoured to be around £20,000,000. No club can afford that. It has to be a government job, just as it is in France, Germany, Hungary, Spain, Australia, Malaysia, and almost everywhere else. In the words of Jackie Stewart “We on the other hand are a private members’ club. A company registered as not-for-profit, and a club that has to look after its 850 members, run a race department and make contributions to young up and coming British drivers”.
That is the position as I understand it. I’m no expert, and others will no doubt pick holes in what I’ve said, but I don’t think the BRDC deserves criticism in this argument. Personally I hate the idea of government subsidy, but I can’t see any alternative.
>> Edited by McNab on Tuesday 28th September 17:32
Piglet said:
I'm not entirely aware that much UK motorsport is planned around F1 unless it concerns a meeting that is planned at Silverstone which is, I think, what happened this year or last year. Mainly domestic motorsport is more influenced by Le Mans than F1.
There isn't much (if any) other motorsport on in this country during the GP weekend due to Sillystone taking up pretty much all the resources available.
Due to falling numbers of marshals, doctors and rescue units there's only so much to go around and so that weekend is always quiet in the rest of country.
not a lot to say about that McNab other than thanks for the post!
I agree, a Government subsidy is not the ideal solution and one which I would not like to see but I also think there is little option but. I also agree that the BRDC get a lot of stick for their failure to keep hold of the GP and assure the F1 fans of its certainty but the armchair fans are unaware just how extreme the situation has become. People like james Allen do not tell the whole story and perhaps if they used the position they are in (that is, a voice to the millions of people who watch F1 in the UK alone) they could put accross the some reasons why the British GP is in doubt and raise some support for its survival.... instead he just treats the viewer as if they were ten
I dont like F1, havent watched it in earnest since about 1996 but more people seem to be drawn to the spectacle than ever before. How many Ferari hats were sold over the Chinese GP race weekend? Great news for the big teams yet the very real possibility of only 16 cars on the grid next year looms ever closer?.... the misappropriation of funding or just natural selection. It seems right that the winners get the biggest share but hten it also seems wrong to see Minardi nad jordan in the annual Winter challenge to raise funding for the next year.
What irritates me is how one little man can get a Country to build a ciruit at the cost of £100m+ for one race a year (all in a Country with the worst human rights records since time begun....) Be serious, how often is the Chinese GP circuit actually going to be used to its potential?. Yet here in the UK we have at least ten regularly used racing circuits and a huge club motorsport scene.... but the people want to see Schumacher in a Ferrari in F1, not John Smith in a Formula Ford at Mallory Park....
Sorry dont really know what I am trying to say here other than I wish all the armchair F1 fans would actually go to a race meeting somewhere in the Country next year, a hillclimb, a drag race, a rally or something, anything.... For every person who thinks F1 is now too dull and boring, there appears to be two who think its better than ever.... maybe everyone who watched the Hungarian GP this year and thought it exciting should be given a video of the 1967 or the 1986 season?..
sorry about the bad spulling!
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th September 17:44
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th September 17:47
I agree, a Government subsidy is not the ideal solution and one which I would not like to see but I also think there is little option but. I also agree that the BRDC get a lot of stick for their failure to keep hold of the GP and assure the F1 fans of its certainty but the armchair fans are unaware just how extreme the situation has become. People like james Allen do not tell the whole story and perhaps if they used the position they are in (that is, a voice to the millions of people who watch F1 in the UK alone) they could put accross the some reasons why the British GP is in doubt and raise some support for its survival.... instead he just treats the viewer as if they were ten
I dont like F1, havent watched it in earnest since about 1996 but more people seem to be drawn to the spectacle than ever before. How many Ferari hats were sold over the Chinese GP race weekend? Great news for the big teams yet the very real possibility of only 16 cars on the grid next year looms ever closer?.... the misappropriation of funding or just natural selection. It seems right that the winners get the biggest share but hten it also seems wrong to see Minardi nad jordan in the annual Winter challenge to raise funding for the next year.
What irritates me is how one little man can get a Country to build a ciruit at the cost of £100m+ for one race a year (all in a Country with the worst human rights records since time begun....) Be serious, how often is the Chinese GP circuit actually going to be used to its potential?. Yet here in the UK we have at least ten regularly used racing circuits and a huge club motorsport scene.... but the people want to see Schumacher in a Ferrari in F1, not John Smith in a Formula Ford at Mallory Park....
Sorry dont really know what I am trying to say here other than I wish all the armchair F1 fans would actually go to a race meeting somewhere in the Country next year, a hillclimb, a drag race, a rally or something, anything.... For every person who thinks F1 is now too dull and boring, there appears to be two who think its better than ever.... maybe everyone who watched the Hungarian GP this year and thought it exciting should be given a video of the 1967 or the 1986 season?..
sorry about the bad spulling!
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th September 17:44
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th September 17:47
pablo said:
What irritates me is how one little man can get a Country to build a ciruit at the cost of £100m+ for one race a year.
I don't have a problem with Government subsidy per se - motorsport, and more specifically F1, does put money into the economy after all. What I have a problem is that all of the money goes to Bernie. Somehow, he has managed to create one of the worlds biggest monopoly's, and is able to personally pocket the benefits of said situation.
Bernie wants his £10m plus advertising rights per race, the teams want to be able to spend £600m a year and joe punter wants to be able to afford to watch the results. The bigger picture is a no brainer therefore - get the costs down to £150m per year per team and downgrade Bernie's role (his position should be worth £10m a year - no more). Obviously this means that we lose Bernie, but I think that his job is done now.
Therefore, at what cost the British GP. If I were the BRDC, with a very fair (and expensive) offer on the table, I'd be prepared to stick by it. At the same time, I would be talking to the teams and the government about 2008 (to allow us to get back in for the new Concorde should the worst happen).
We need to keep the teams in the UK - losing them would be a disaster, not only for motorsport, but as a country we would also lose the halo effect that allows us to claim the worlds best engineers are based here - an image which keeps an awful lot more of us employed than the numbers linked to motorsport.
Max is determined to cut the costs to the teams, but that should also spread to the circuits. F1 as a sport can stand on its own two feet. The problem is that F1 as a brand is too strong at the moment, so for the next five years, it can't afford to be a sport. There is money to be had - and greedy hands that will do anything to get it. The longer term may be different however.
There is enough money to go around. If the present requirement for massive state funding continues however, then the sport will surely die ;(.
>> Edited by daydreamer on Tuesday 28th September 18:02
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