Which road car has the most impressive/memorable brakes?

[anonymous-user]

I ask this because I have recently upgraded the brakes on my lowly ford puma. I also helped a friend upgrade/replace the brakes on his MK1 MR2 yesterday and I just wanted amateur or expert opinions on what PH readers consider to be (objectively) the best brakes ever; perhaps even reaching a concensus...

Best,

Fred.

Edited by coombsfh on Tuesday 9th April 14:19

[Wattsie]

No experience of them myself, but I've seen the Lotus Elise noted on here by people who say it has very progressive pedal action.

But then AMG Mercs would probably have stronger braking power, but less feel. Depends what you look for in brakes; outright power, resilience to fade, feel through the pedal, etc.

Ive only really driven a Fiesta, a Puma and a Mk3 Mondeo, none of which are known for having good brakes

[McSam]

I'm a bit confused by this, because the brakes fitted to any remotely recent car will always be easily capable of exceeding the tyre adhesion - which means the standard brakes can already produce the maximum possible deceleration.

The only thing that upgrades will do for you is reduce fade in repeated heavy use, or help deal with a big increase in grip such as when using semi-slicks on track. Maybe you'd get a small change in pedal feel.

But really, what I'm saying is that all modern cars have brakes far more powerful than their tyres can handle, so what's the difference? I think judging "outright best" by feel and action alone is a bit daft.

[RDMcG]

In my experience Porsches in general have superb brakes, right across the board. I personally love the standard brakes on the GT3RS but many prefer the ceramics which have better stopping power I gather. Strangely, i have found a number of BMWs to be a bit under braked for hard driving, in particular my old E63 M6.

[nickfrog]

My humble Boxsters on OE pads. Obviously easily capable of overcoming front tyres adhesion even from surprisingly high speeds but so also very fade resistant even after 5 laps at 9/10ths.
But the cherry on the cake was how much modulation they offered, in a world of over-servoed brakes.

[Asterix]

As above - Porsche brakes are always pretty good as they're firstly strong, but Porsche don't over-servo them and they have a great feel for I what I guess is a mainstream marque.

[anonymous-user]

McSam said:

I'm a bit confused by this, because the brakes fitted to any remotely recent car will always be easily capable of exceeding the tyre adhesion - which means the standard brakes can already produce the maximum possible deceleration.

The only thing that upgrades will do for you is reduce fade in repeated heavy use, or help deal with a big increase in grip such as when using semi-slicks on track. Maybe you'd get a small change in pedal feel.

But really, what I'm saying is that all modern cars have brakes far more powerful than their tyres can handle, so what's the difference? I think judging "outright best" by feel and action alone is a bit daft.

Thnks for the swift response. You raise a valid point. I did use the word "ever" so I am encouraging objective responses. Perhaps someone will come forward with the most ground braking (no pun intended) brakes for their time? Also, I dare say all modern cars don't have brakes that could lock the wheels (or engage ABS) instantly at motorway and above speeds.

If we are talking super-cars and such, maybe someone will chime in with opinions on a car that uses an air brake as well as hydraulic ones. Inboard vs outboard etc. Conversely someone might chime in with the worst brakes they have ever experienced.

Let's see where this goes...

PS Porsche seem popular already

Edited by coombsfh on Tuesday 9th April 14:31

[McSam]

coombsfh said:

Thnks for the swift response. You raise a valid point. I did use the word "ever" so I am encouraging objective responses. Perhaps someone will come forward with the most ground braking (no pun intended) brakes for their time? Also, I dare say all modern cars don't have brakes that could lock the wheels (or engage ABS) instantly at motorway and above speeds.

If we are talking super-cars and such, maybe someone will chime in with opinions on a car that uses an air brake as well as hydraulic ones. Inboard vs outboard etc. Conversely someone might chime in with the worst brakes they have ever experienced.

Let's see where this goes...

Oh, I definitely think it's interesting to talk about, experiences are always good to read expansive topic.

I just wanted to dispel the idea that upgrading brakes makes cars stop quicker - it doesn't, not if the car was designed properly in the first place, it just makes them more resistant to hard use. E60 M5s come to mind - great for one stop, but they do start to suffer excessive heat build-up very quickly.

Your section in bold - you're incorrect, all modern cars would be easily capable of exceeding adhesion limits whatever speed they're going. It's also a common misconception that roadspeed alters the amount of available grip, or for our purposes the braking force required to cause locking - unless you're generating downforce (or a lot of lift), no, it doesn't matter how fast you're going

Edited by McSam on Tuesday 9th April 14:36

[anonymous-user]

McSam said:

h, I definitely think it's an interesting topic to talk about, experiences are always good to read about

I just wanted to dispel the idea that upgrading brakes makes cars stop quicker - it doesn't, not if the car was designed properly in the first place, it just makes them more resistant to hard use. E60 M5s come to mind - great for one stop, but they do start to suffer excessive heat build-up very quickly.

Your section in bold - you're incorrect, all modern cars would be easily capable of exceeding adhesion limits whatever speed they're going. It's also a common misconception that roadspeed alters the amount of available grip, or for our purposes the braking force required to cause locking - unless you're generating downforce (or a lot of lift), no, it doesn't matter how fast you're going

I am enlightened. In my limited experience, the silly little brakes that the puma had could not break tyre adhesion at any speed and faded to an even more loathsome experience when given stick. Mercifully, the larger brakes I have fitted are now extremely impressive (to me at least).

[Hammerhead]

+ another for Porsche brakes. I'm quite impressed with the stoppers attached to Mrs Hammerheads MX5 (MK 3.5) - they feel very Porsche-like to my feet.

[TameRacingDriver]

I dunno, the Puma is the first car I've had where I actually feel as though I might actually struggle to make the wheels lock - I probably could but I'd have to practically kick the pedal through the bulk head.

OP what did you upgrade your Puma brakes to, as I might look into it myself.

As for the original question, I thought of all the road cars I've had, the DC2 ITR was the best I've had all round. Good feel, powerful, and able to stand repeated abuse, and the car itself was well balanced and set up so it didn't nose dive too much or end up with a light back end (Clio 182 I'm looking at you).

Most of the other cars I've owned (not supercars, just affordable petrol head cars) have lacked in some area or others for braking performance IMO.

[AlexIT]

I must say that the Clio 172 brakes with Carbone Lorraine pads have always been impressive. Very strong and modulable across the whole temperature range. Unfortunately terrible squealing

Since I have changed to 4 pot calipers I can use the CL only with 048 or similar tyres, otherwise it's instant lock... maybe not the smartest move

[McSam]

coombsfh said:

I am enlightened. In my limited experience, the silly little brakes that the puma had could not break tyre adhesion at any speed and faded to an even more loathsome experience when given stick. Mercifully, the larger brakes I have fitted are now extremely impressive (to me at least).

I guess it depends how shot those brakes were and contaminated fluid can make a huge difference to the performance too. Certainly modern cars will be designed so that they can overwhelm the tyres with quite moderate pedal force, partly because so few people know how hard you should actually stand on the pedal in an emergency stop! No idea how much cost-cutting Ford fancied at the time of the Puma, though.


I would judge the worst I've used to be on a Mk1 Mondeo, because there was little to no feedback whatsoever, quite a stiff action that didn't seem to do much, but the really big issue was that the ABS would completely bugger you in very wet or snowy conditions! Incredible that it was signed off like that.

Anything light enough to get away without assistance has to be in with a shout for "best ever", though it's a great feeling.

[AW111]

Memorable brakes - I recently drove an Escort rally car across town. Cold, unassisted brakes (bias pedal box) with rock hard competition pads.
The first stop at the end of the street was very memorable! I thought I was going to break something in my leg, getting it to pull up.
The owner/driver is a left-foot braker, and apparently the brakes are brilliant when you get some heat in them.

[eatontrifles]

McSam said:

coombsfh said:

Thnks for the swift response. You raise a valid point. I did use the word "ever" so I am encouraging objective responses. Perhaps someone will come forward with the most ground braking (no pun intended) brakes for their time? Also, I dare say all modern cars don't have brakes that could lock the wheels (or engage ABS) instantly at motorway and above speeds.

If we are talking super-cars and such, maybe someone will chime in with opinions on a car that uses an air brake as well as hydraulic ones. Inboard vs outboard etc. Conversely someone might chime in with the worst brakes they have ever experienced.

Let's see where this goes...

Oh, I definitely think it's interesting to talk about, experiences are always good to read expansive topic.

I just wanted to dispel the idea that upgrading brakes makes cars stop quicker - it doesn't, not if the car was designed properly in the first place, it just makes them more resistant to hard use. E60 M5s come to mind - great for one stop, but they do start to suffer excessive heat build-up very quickly.

Your section in bold - you're incorrect, all modern cars would be easily capable of exceeding adhesion limits whatever speed they're going. It's also a common misconception that roadspeed alters the amount of available grip, or for our purposes the braking force required to cause locking - unless you're generating downforce (or a lot of lift), no, it doesn't matter how fast you're going

Edited by McSam on Tuesday 9th April 14:36

Exceeding the limit of grip during deceleration is relatively simple at low speed, an indication of good brakes is the ability to slow rapidly from higher speeds.

[anonymous-user]

TameRacingDriver said:

I dunno, the Puma is the first car I've had where I actually feel as though I might actually struggle to make the wheels lock - I probably could but I'd have to practically kick the pedal through the bulk head.

I can identify with this having used standard brakes, especially when pushed.

TameRacingDriver said:

OP what did you upgrade your Puma brakes to, as I might look into it myself.

I used fiesta ST150 Calipers with mintex pads and discs. Didn't bother doing hoses as the ones I had were fine. Just bled them and away I went. They bedded in fairly slowly but soon became very strong after a second, proper bleeding. The pedal feel is good, stout without being like a brick and the stopping power is well modulated. Not sure if rear discs would make a vast improvement but that is something that puma owners do.

[McSam]

eatontrifles said:

Exceeding the limit of grip during deceleration is relatively simple at low speed, an indication of good brakes is the ability to slow rapidly from higher speeds.

This isn't because it takes any more force to break adhesion at higher speeds - why would this be the case? - but more because a consistent, controlled stop from high speed shows good thermal performance (and a stable setup, I suppose). The amount of energy dissipated from higher speeds is huge, all of which becomes heat for the brakes to deal with, which is why repeated high-speed stops cause issues for some heavier/cheaper cars.

[anonymous-user]

AlexIT said:

I must say that the Clio 172 brakes with Carbone Lorraine pads have always been impressive. Very strong and modulable across the whole temperature range. Unfortunately terrible squealing

Since I have changed to 4 pot calipers I can use the CL only with 048 or similar tyres, otherwise it's instant lock... maybe not the smartest move

This is what I was hoping for. All sorts of cars, with all sorts of brakes and all sorts of experiences. Thanks.

[TheTurbonator]

McSam said:

I'm a bit confused by this, because the brakes fitted to any remotely recent car will always be easily capable of exceeding the tyre adhesion - which means the standard brakes can already produce the maximum possible deceleration.

The only thing that upgrades will do for you is reduce fade in repeated heavy use, or help deal with a big increase in grip such as when using semi-slicks on track. Maybe you'd get a small change in pedal feel.

But really, what I'm saying is that all modern cars have brakes far more powerful than their tyres can handle, so what's the difference? I think judging "outright best" by feel and action alone is a bit daft.

With all the recent technology and braking systems available now, it's not quite as simple as, too powerful brakes will overcome the limits of the tyre anymore, is it?

You have ABS which stops the wheels locking, ESP that stops the cars sliding in any other direction than what the driver intends, assisted brakes that predict when a driver is using the brakes in an emergency situation and will apply the maximum amount of force and also other systems that judge which wheels have the most grip and will apply braking force to each wheel accordingly.

Of course all these systems differ from manufacturer to manufacturer, with some being better than others and thus can stop a car more quickly.

In my experience, for example, modern PSA braking systems are a lot better than Ford systems.

[anonymous-user]

eatontrifles said:

Exceeding the limit of grip during deceleration is relatively simple at low speed, an indication of good brakes is the ability to slow rapidly from higher speeds.

I can certainly vouch for high-speed to no-speed at all being vastly improved having swapped out for larger brakes...