verifying mileage on approved used Porsche

[owfast]

Long time lurker here, looking for an opinion on verifying the mileage on my 997 tt gen1. Bought my car in Jan 12 from an OPC with 2 yrs Porsche approved warranty, as a weekend toy, have enjoyed my time with the car but felt with family growing up (2 teenagers) the car was not getting the use it deserved and I wanted to sell it and get something slightly more sensible (C63/ M3/M5 etc) that we could all go out in.
Took car to a well known independent who did a diagnostic check on car and said that there was a discrepancy on the car mileage between the odometer and the DME of c 12,000km, everything else (over revs etc were fine) although he did point out the service book was not the original).
Contacted dealer who said I had to return car to them for inspection, a printout of the VAL from the car shows the discrepancy. Data from car was sent to Porsche AG who insist that the car has not been clocked and they say that the average speed (running hours vs odometer speed) "looks about right" at 29 mph, if i use the DME mileage i get an average speed of 36.35mph which also could be about right depending how/where a car is driven.
Porsche seem happy to ignore the DME mileage and say I quote "the unit that records the mileage is the instrument cluster, the mileage from the instrument cluster matches the running hours of the engine, I can confirm the mileage has never been tampered with." ( 2 minutes on YouTube shows how easily odometer can be adjusted!)
In a previous message Porsche say "Porsche will determine and confirm mileage on vehicle through the running miles as accumulated on the internal control unit, this is accessed through our system tester, the DME itself has a logged mileage, however it is not an accurate reflection and something we do not use to confirm mileage. Porsche AG are in the process of having the visibility of mileage through the DME removed for this reason. The external independent dealers do not have the same level of tools available to accurately determine mileage this is why they often use the DME unit"
I have a few questions for you all,
1 for those of you that have had PPI's done on cars how often have you seen discrepancies between odometer and DME mileage?
2 If Porsche remove visibility of DME mileage from VAL is it then OK only to use running hours vs odometer to verify mileage, and will this be only way in future? (green light for clocking?)

To get best price for my car I feel I need to sell it to an independent dealer, any dealer worth his salt will do a diagnostic dump and see the difference between the reading, will that dealer be happy to buy on average speed vs odometer??
This means I am unable to market my car to where I can get best price, having bought an official approved used porsche i feel badly let down; Buyer beware even at an OPC!!!!!!!!!
sorry if i have gone on a bit any replies welcome!!!

[drmark]

Sell back to supplying dealer?

[thegoose]

Clocking cars or even the suggestion of it from a publicity point of view, is bad news for dealers. As an OPC with all the right tools they're telling you about they of all people should have spotted this discrepancy when preparing the car, and should be held responsible for not doing so. Officially you should reject the car and request a refund in full but I'd suggest trying to discuss the matter with the DP saying you'd like the matter dealt with quickly rather than have to go through Trading Standards (clocking is a criminal offence so they'll do all the work to prosecute should the matter get that far), the Various trade associations they'll be members of (which have dispute resolution services) and of course the press. A likely sensible outcome is to get a refund less an allowance for the use you've had out of it, they can decide if they dare retail it again or more likely send it to auction.

[BertBert]

thegoose said:

Clocking cars or even the suggestion of it from a publicity point of view, is bad news for dealers. As an OPC with all the right tools they're telling you about they of all people should have spotted this discrepancy when preparing the car, and should be held responsible for not doing so. Officially you should reject the car and request a refund in full but I'd suggest trying to discuss the matter with the DP saying you'd like the matter dealt with quickly rather than have to go through Trading Standards (clocking is a criminal offence so they'll do all the work to prosecute should the matter get that far), the Various trade associations they'll be members of (which have dispute resolution services) and of course the press. A likely sensible outcome is to get a refund less an allowance for the use you've had out of it, they can decide if they dare retail it again or more likely send it to auction.

But if I read it right, Porsche have said that the car is fine, not clocked. The reading that is causing the "issue" is incorrect and they are trying to get that reading hidden from the prying public in future. So they don't accept that there has been any dodgy dealings.

If so, how is the OP to proceed with the DP and/or trading standards?

Bert

[owfast]

thanks for the comments, the Dealer and DP are taking the line of Porsche that the car is not clocked despite the DME reading, sell back offer from Dealer is considerably below what I had been offered by the specialist independant.
Porsche seem to be happy to go by average speed but surely a car based in a city may average only 20 mph which would equal say 20,000 miles over 1000 running hours, whereas a car doing more motorway and A road running could average 30-40mph and so cover 30-40,000 miles over the same running hours, how can this be a true way to verify mileage?

[thegoose]

BertBert said:

But if I read it right, Porsche have said that the car is fine, not clocked. The reading that is causing the "issue" is incorrect and they are trying to get that reading hidden from the prying public in future. So they don't accept that there has been any dodgy dealings.

If so, how is the OP to proceed with the DP and/or trading standards?

Bert

Anything "incorrect" with respect to recorded mileage and Trading Standards are VERY interested. If I were the DP the last thing I'd want is any suggestion of incorrect mileage about any car my dealership had supplied being publicised.

The question has to be asked why the DME & dash figures are different and why the OPC didn't notice it when prep'ing and selling the car?

Unless there's something ridiculous about them, I don't think the running hours and/or average speed have much relevance - I've had pukka genuine cars with 55mph average speed and 25mph - these are by no means the limits of what's reasonably possible. I suppose below 10-15mph is unlikely as is above 100mph (even on autobahns..).

[f1ashgordon]

What do the MOT certificates state (unless post jan 2012)?

Edited by f1ashgordon on Thursday 18th April 13:02

[owfast]

Mot certificates all add up as does service history on Porsche system, although its first service was not until 2 years old and 8000 miles,in the opinion of the independent dealer the mileage would have been wound back before this first service

[thegoose]

owfast said:

Mot certificates all add up as does service history on Porsche system, although its first service was not until 2 years old and 8000 miles,in the opinion of the independent dealer the mileage would have been wound back before this first service

That makes sense, it happens a lot - plenty of private owners seem to have no qualms about defrauding dealers (or any buyer probably) when trading their cars in if they can get more money for them, so for a few quid they'll employ the services of a "mileage correction service". They will nearly always get away with it too sadly.

[ITP]

So Porsche are saying they check the mileage against the odometer by verifying it against the 'internal control unit'. Only official Porsche centres can read this.

The 'DME' also records mileage but this often records wrong, so they ignore it? Why would it record wrong, seems odd, doesn't mean to say its not true though I suppose... I would have thought the most likely thing to be wrong was the odometer.

[BertBert]

thegoose said:

The question has to be asked why the DME & dash figures are different and why the OPC didn't notice it when prep'ing and selling the car?

I thought the (official) answer was that the DME figure is not to be trusted in this regard? If so, I suspect the OP won't be able to get very far with that line as he is finding.

Bert

[thegoose]

BertBert said:

I thought the (official) answer was that the DME figure is not to be trusted in this regard? If so, I suspect the OP won't be able to get very far with that line as he is finding.

Bert

Maybe, but I'd want it in writing from Porsche AG that the DME data is not be relied upon. I can't see why it's there though in that case, and why it would be wrong? It's not rocket science to record the mileage in two places or by two methods and they should always correlate closely even if they're not exactly the same.


I once had a 1992 Bentley with 176,000 on the analogue dial and a slightly different figure by about 1500-2000 miles on the digital one display (the dash had both), but it was so close percentage-wise it was clear to see it was just the tolerance between the varying accuracy of the two devices.

[Spy]

I believe that there is nearly always a discrepancy between the odometer and the DME. I am not sure why. As I understand it though, that difference should not in the 12,000Km range but maybe up to a couple of thousand KM difference. I am sure there are others on here more knowledgeable but that is how I remember it when researching my purchase

[owfast]

I have just done more work on this, Porsche say that the DME is not accurate, I have two downloads of data from car, the first was taken at the independent dealer, the second at the OPC
Odometer
Date dash DDME difference
15/03/2013 51277 64158 12881 Data read at independent
19/03/2013 51936 64818 12882 VAL at OPC
as you can see the difference after a 409km trip is less than 1km, yet my DME mileage vs odometer shows a 25% discrepancy, how can they say DME mileage is inaccurate???

[f1ashgordon]

No idea, everything is consistent in those readings apart from the original 25% discrepancy.

Time to take it out of the dealership's hands. There's potentially a lot riding on this for the OPC so I'm not surprised you're being fobbed off, sometimes that tactic is enough to get people to drop the issue. Can you talk to Porsche GB directly and trading standards? Threaten DP when you have trading standards' advice?

Incidentally, where do you get the 409km from? the difference between dates on both DASH and DDME is 659/660

Edited by f1ashgordon on Thursday 18th April 18:01

[owfast]

sorry typo yes difference is 1 km over 660/659 kmh, the case is also in hands of Porsche Customer support, I have sent them my figures and ask how they can still say the DME reading can't be trusted. Haven't gone as far as trading standards yet but looks like it is the next route if Porsche continue to deny there is a problem!

[f1ashgordon]

Good luck, I certainly wouldn't let it drop.

[DeeKay17]

This is rather interesting, especially as I'm currently looking to buy my first 911.

Did you have a PPI done prior to purchase? Would be worth getting the view of one of the PPI experts who inspect cars for a living as they must have good knowledge of these issues and perhaps see this on a daily basis. Peter Morgan and co please chime in with your wisdom and let us know what you think.

[Rockster]

owfast said:

sorry typo yes difference is 1 km over 660/659 kmh, the case is also in hands of Porsche Customer support, I have sent them my figures and ask how they can still say the DME reading can't be trusted. Haven't gone as far as trading standards yet but looks like it is the next route if Porsche continue to deny there is a problem!

I've never experienced this with a Porsche but a car I owned some years ago had an odometer problem. While the speedo speed was correct I noticed that the odometer was not advancing properly. I checked this several times over a known distance and the reading was off by a considerable amount. I do not recall the amount now but it was on the order of after a 15 mile drive the odometer would register just a few miles distance.

I took the car to the dealer and reported the problem. The dealer put the car on a chassis dyno (rolling road) and tested the speedo and reported back it was reporting/showing the correct speed. I repeated the problem was not with the speedo but with the odometer and was told the dealer found no problem and that was that.

Since the car was under warranty I decided what the heck. If the odometer under reported mileage that was not my fault.

Years later I came upon some info about an odometer problem in this car. The lube used in the odometer was too thick and under some conditions this could cause the odometer to fail to register miles covered. I learned there was a TSB on this but the dealer in the area where I now lived didn't have the odometer kit in stock and I decided to leave it be. I might mention the trip odometer worked just fine.

I'm sure had someone read the DME and its engine run time the odometer and run time would have raised some eyebrows.

[owfast]

No i did not have a PPI done as it was a Porsche Approved car from an OPC, didnt think it was necessary surely they should be the gold standard? have certainly learnt my lesson and would insist on an Independent PPI in the future.

The dealer who was looking to buy my car inspects many Porsche's and has been a great deal of help to me, and the arguments coming back from Porsche to ignore the DME reading as it cannot be trusted just make no sense to me, I think my figures prove this. I would say if you are looking to buy you have to get a PPI or have a sight of the data download from Porsche (VAL) if you cannot see this walk away.

Another thing I have learned to look for is the service book, I understand that from the 997 onwards the build sticker with option codes is stuck in the service book, Prior to having this 997 I had a 996 c4s, this had the sticker under the front hood, when the independent looked at my service book this sticker was not there so the book was a replacement raising suspicions further, so you have to be careful!!