X300 or X308 as a daily smoker
Discussion
A recent change of job means that I will soon have a 20 mile round trip for a daily commute. I have been thinking about adding an XJ to the fleet for this task (there seem to be plenty of nice ones for sale in the £1 - 3k bracket). Plainly I'm not too fussed by mpg but do need a car that is reliable and can at least survive for a year or two without a major bill. Assuming one of these is up to the task which one do you think is the best bet?
Any views are welcome
Thanks
Huge difference in terms of refinement and performance between the two visually similar cars. The X300 XJ6 engine and drivetrain has design roots in the 1970s and is compromised by a crude 4 speed gearbox - the X308 XJ8 V8 engine is still current today and the car has a much better 5 speed box.
XJ8 BUYERS GUIDE
To avoid model confusion between the several XJ variants the 1997-2002 V8 engined XJ is often referred to by its factory designation as the X308.
£3000 should buy you a good example, but the best low mileage cars are priced at more than that. Engines were revised in late 1999 for the 2000 model year to deal with a number of problems and the revised engine versions can be identified by a VIN number ending in five, not six digits.
Pre engine revision cars had weak water pumps, secondary timing chain tensioners, throttle bodies and a Nicasil coating directly on the aluminum cylinder walls rather than conventional liners pressed into the block.
Some Nicasil coatings suffered from bore erosion due to a combination of high Sulphur content fuel and short trips. Sulphur maximum limits in petrol were lowered considerably in 2000 so any early Nicasil coated V8 engine that's still OK now should be fine forever. Several engines were changed under warranty so you may find a pre 2000 car with a later steel lined engine fitted - identify this by the presence of a green tag on the head at the back of the RH bank and the engine change should also be recorded in the history. Symptoms of bore erosion are poor cold starting, a rough idle and heavy oil deposits in the breather system and air intakes. Crankcase pressure will be high too – a quick check is to slightly lift the oil filler cap at hot idle. There should be little or no internal pressure or fumes escaping. Jaguar dealers can perform a blowby check to determine engine condition. A good condition engine will show less than 25 l/m, anything over 40 l/m makes a good Top Gear coffee table.
Water pumps ought to be upgraded for the later version with a metal not plastic impellor.
Plastic impellors can disintegrate leading to overheating and potential head gasket failure. You may be able to identify the later type of pump by the presence of a black plastic, not metal gasket, but the only certain way is to remove the pump and have a look and if you’re doing that stick a new one on anyway. Coolant hose clips can loose tension and blow off and some plastic parts on the hoses, unions and thermostat housing can be delicate. Check all over for evidence of coolant leaks. Occasional heater pump failures can lead to no heat in the cabin at low engine RPM. Cycle the whole climate and a/c system through all vent operations and temperature range. Two types of coolant available for the XJ - don’t mix the later orange long life one with the earlier type.
Early throttle bodies should have all have been changed to the later design under a safety factory recall. Some of the early bodies suffered from weak/failing actuating motors causing to the engine to cut out completely on the overrun.
The only post revision engine issue is the secondary timing chain tensioners. These were revised to mk 2 version at the same time as the rest of the engine revisions but the mk 2 type still had a plastic body which can crack or break up leading to slipped or broken chains. Symptoms of tensioner failure are a sharp rattling noise similar to a bicycle chain dragging on the chain guard on a cold start with the mk1 type, the mk2 usually fails silently
A permanent solution is to retro-fit the later mk3 version tensioner with a steel body from the later 4.2 incarnation of the V8 engine and the only way to be sure of which tensioners are fitted to an X308 is to either have a receipt with part numbers C2A1511 and C2A1512 and 4 bolts on it relating to that particular car or remove the RH cam cover - the LH is a PITA to get off - and have a look. An orange (mk1) or cream (mk2) tensioner plastic body is bad news, a metal one (mk3) is good. The cam phasing on the V8 means the timing gear works hard and timing chains can stretch at high mileages or on neglected cars. If this is identified then a full chain replacement is required costing up to £1000. If the chains are fine then it’s a wise precaution to fit the mk3 tensioners which is a fairly easy DIY job. Tensioners cost around £75 a set plus a couple of quid for bolts. Exhaust cam chains slipping one tooth will give a rough running engine, more than one tooth means exhaust valves meet pistons.
One other concern is the “sealed for life” gearbox. Loads have failed now - just look on ebay in the non runners or spares and repairs section. Ideally the oil and filter should be changed at 50k then 25k intervals; it's not a simple drain and refill on the ZF box as the final fill has to be done with the engine running and within a narrow temperature range.
The ZF 5 speed box on the n/a cars requires Esso/Mobil longlife LT 71141 fluid also known as Lifeguard fluid 5 and not conventional Dexron 3. The stronger Mercedes gearbox in the supercharged version is also sealed for life but the same change requirement apply although you can use conventional Dexron 3 in this box and it’s a much easier job to do too.
The same applies to the rear axle. Oil should be changed but there’s no drain plug. Old oil has to be vacuum extracted out of the filler plug.
Look for corrosion on the rear wheel arches, round the front and rear screens, bottom of the front wings and most importantly behind the front shocks on both sides. There's a reinforcing plate here where the engine sub frame is bolted to the chassis rail and some cars have corroded badly here. It's an MOT fail too and a big welding job. Body and paintwork is otherwise pretty good however some darker coloured cars suffer from peeling lacquer. Interiors are robust too but expect some wear on the drivers seat bolster.
XJ's are hard on suspension and brakes, listen and feel very carefully for any clonking or knocking when you're out and make sure the car comes to a straight judder free stop under braking. Rattle felt through the steering over bumps may be a worn crush joint on the lower steering column. Rattle from the rear is failed shocks. XJs with weak rear bushes will tend to self steer and wander about under hard acceleration.
Feel all the tyres for uneven wear too, any suspension wear or bush failure will cause tyres to feather oddly and heavy wear in the inside edges is a symptom of excess negative camber from wishbone bush failure. Very slight feathering is to be expected however, especially on the fronts. XJs are very sensitive to wheel and tyre imbalances too, typically you'll feel a steering wobble between 50-70MPH and possibly vibration through the seat if there are any tyre problems or buckled wheels.
Don't expect too much in the way of the legendary Jaguar ride quality either - it's good on touring (black shocks) suspension and 16" wheels but sport suspension (green shocks) has uprated antiroll bars which combined with larger diameter wheels and lower profile tyres gives a hard crashy ride on poor roads. CATS suspension may be fitted as an option to any X308 which has electronically controlled valves in the shocks to vary the damping rates depending on driving style. Identify CATS by the presence of a lead to the top of the front shock absorbers under the bonnet
Any car that hesitates or engages Drive with a jerk or thump as the engine speed rises has a potential gearbox failure looming, changes should be seamless and quiet and you should be able to play tunes with the throttle, Sport switch and J gate selector. A very faint whine may be heard in intermediate gears. Any gearbox worries then just walk away. An oil change may be all that’s needed to cure a rough gearbox problem but that’s never guaranteed.
XJ’s need a strong battery to avoid random error messages appearing on start up. If you get one – usually TRAC FAIL – the battery is on its way out or needs several days on a trickle charge.
Generally the 1998-2002 XJ8 is a well made sound car and capable of big mileages if maintained well. It's mostly easy enough to DIY too and parts are reasonable and in good supply. Special tools can be hired from the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club.
Expect around 26/8 MPG on the motorway, 22/4 round town and mid teens if you nail it everywhere. Tyres are around £100/125 a corner in 16" diameter size. The 3.2 is quick enough (0-60 is 8s) the 4.0 is much rarer and does the same in 7.0.
One last thing – never start an XJ8 from cold and then switch off again without allowing the temp gauge to move from the cold section of the scale. Chances are it’ll flood and wash all the oil of the bores and it’s a right PITA to get it started again.
HTH JS
XJ8 BUYERS GUIDE
To avoid model confusion between the several XJ variants the 1997-2002 V8 engined XJ is often referred to by its factory designation as the X308.
£3000 should buy you a good example, but the best low mileage cars are priced at more than that. Engines were revised in late 1999 for the 2000 model year to deal with a number of problems and the revised engine versions can be identified by a VIN number ending in five, not six digits.
Pre engine revision cars had weak water pumps, secondary timing chain tensioners, throttle bodies and a Nicasil coating directly on the aluminum cylinder walls rather than conventional liners pressed into the block.
Some Nicasil coatings suffered from bore erosion due to a combination of high Sulphur content fuel and short trips. Sulphur maximum limits in petrol were lowered considerably in 2000 so any early Nicasil coated V8 engine that's still OK now should be fine forever. Several engines were changed under warranty so you may find a pre 2000 car with a later steel lined engine fitted - identify this by the presence of a green tag on the head at the back of the RH bank and the engine change should also be recorded in the history. Symptoms of bore erosion are poor cold starting, a rough idle and heavy oil deposits in the breather system and air intakes. Crankcase pressure will be high too – a quick check is to slightly lift the oil filler cap at hot idle. There should be little or no internal pressure or fumes escaping. Jaguar dealers can perform a blowby check to determine engine condition. A good condition engine will show less than 25 l/m, anything over 40 l/m makes a good Top Gear coffee table.
Water pumps ought to be upgraded for the later version with a metal not plastic impellor.
Plastic impellors can disintegrate leading to overheating and potential head gasket failure. You may be able to identify the later type of pump by the presence of a black plastic, not metal gasket, but the only certain way is to remove the pump and have a look and if you’re doing that stick a new one on anyway. Coolant hose clips can loose tension and blow off and some plastic parts on the hoses, unions and thermostat housing can be delicate. Check all over for evidence of coolant leaks. Occasional heater pump failures can lead to no heat in the cabin at low engine RPM. Cycle the whole climate and a/c system through all vent operations and temperature range. Two types of coolant available for the XJ - don’t mix the later orange long life one with the earlier type.
Early throttle bodies should have all have been changed to the later design under a safety factory recall. Some of the early bodies suffered from weak/failing actuating motors causing to the engine to cut out completely on the overrun.
The only post revision engine issue is the secondary timing chain tensioners. These were revised to mk 2 version at the same time as the rest of the engine revisions but the mk 2 type still had a plastic body which can crack or break up leading to slipped or broken chains. Symptoms of tensioner failure are a sharp rattling noise similar to a bicycle chain dragging on the chain guard on a cold start with the mk1 type, the mk2 usually fails silently
A permanent solution is to retro-fit the later mk3 version tensioner with a steel body from the later 4.2 incarnation of the V8 engine and the only way to be sure of which tensioners are fitted to an X308 is to either have a receipt with part numbers C2A1511 and C2A1512 and 4 bolts on it relating to that particular car or remove the RH cam cover - the LH is a PITA to get off - and have a look. An orange (mk1) or cream (mk2) tensioner plastic body is bad news, a metal one (mk3) is good. The cam phasing on the V8 means the timing gear works hard and timing chains can stretch at high mileages or on neglected cars. If this is identified then a full chain replacement is required costing up to £1000. If the chains are fine then it’s a wise precaution to fit the mk3 tensioners which is a fairly easy DIY job. Tensioners cost around £75 a set plus a couple of quid for bolts. Exhaust cam chains slipping one tooth will give a rough running engine, more than one tooth means exhaust valves meet pistons.
One other concern is the “sealed for life” gearbox. Loads have failed now - just look on ebay in the non runners or spares and repairs section. Ideally the oil and filter should be changed at 50k then 25k intervals; it's not a simple drain and refill on the ZF box as the final fill has to be done with the engine running and within a narrow temperature range.
The ZF 5 speed box on the n/a cars requires Esso/Mobil longlife LT 71141 fluid also known as Lifeguard fluid 5 and not conventional Dexron 3. The stronger Mercedes gearbox in the supercharged version is also sealed for life but the same change requirement apply although you can use conventional Dexron 3 in this box and it’s a much easier job to do too.
The same applies to the rear axle. Oil should be changed but there’s no drain plug. Old oil has to be vacuum extracted out of the filler plug.
Look for corrosion on the rear wheel arches, round the front and rear screens, bottom of the front wings and most importantly behind the front shocks on both sides. There's a reinforcing plate here where the engine sub frame is bolted to the chassis rail and some cars have corroded badly here. It's an MOT fail too and a big welding job. Body and paintwork is otherwise pretty good however some darker coloured cars suffer from peeling lacquer. Interiors are robust too but expect some wear on the drivers seat bolster.
XJ's are hard on suspension and brakes, listen and feel very carefully for any clonking or knocking when you're out and make sure the car comes to a straight judder free stop under braking. Rattle felt through the steering over bumps may be a worn crush joint on the lower steering column. Rattle from the rear is failed shocks. XJs with weak rear bushes will tend to self steer and wander about under hard acceleration.
Feel all the tyres for uneven wear too, any suspension wear or bush failure will cause tyres to feather oddly and heavy wear in the inside edges is a symptom of excess negative camber from wishbone bush failure. Very slight feathering is to be expected however, especially on the fronts. XJs are very sensitive to wheel and tyre imbalances too, typically you'll feel a steering wobble between 50-70MPH and possibly vibration through the seat if there are any tyre problems or buckled wheels.
Don't expect too much in the way of the legendary Jaguar ride quality either - it's good on touring (black shocks) suspension and 16" wheels but sport suspension (green shocks) has uprated antiroll bars which combined with larger diameter wheels and lower profile tyres gives a hard crashy ride on poor roads. CATS suspension may be fitted as an option to any X308 which has electronically controlled valves in the shocks to vary the damping rates depending on driving style. Identify CATS by the presence of a lead to the top of the front shock absorbers under the bonnet
Any car that hesitates or engages Drive with a jerk or thump as the engine speed rises has a potential gearbox failure looming, changes should be seamless and quiet and you should be able to play tunes with the throttle, Sport switch and J gate selector. A very faint whine may be heard in intermediate gears. Any gearbox worries then just walk away. An oil change may be all that’s needed to cure a rough gearbox problem but that’s never guaranteed.
XJ’s need a strong battery to avoid random error messages appearing on start up. If you get one – usually TRAC FAIL – the battery is on its way out or needs several days on a trickle charge.
Generally the 1998-2002 XJ8 is a well made sound car and capable of big mileages if maintained well. It's mostly easy enough to DIY too and parts are reasonable and in good supply. Special tools can be hired from the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club.
Expect around 26/8 MPG on the motorway, 22/4 round town and mid teens if you nail it everywhere. Tyres are around £100/125 a corner in 16" diameter size. The 3.2 is quick enough (0-60 is 8s) the 4.0 is much rarer and does the same in 7.0.
One last thing – never start an XJ8 from cold and then switch off again without allowing the temp gauge to move from the cold section of the scale. Chances are it’ll flood and wash all the oil of the bores and it’s a right PITA to get it started again.
HTH JS
Ecurie Ecosse said:
The XJRs are faster, of course, but the Sovereign is just serene with a smoother ride. The MPG isn't too ruinous either.
Between the two is the "Goldilocks" car, the Sport, being "Just right"The 3.2s are much more common and still go very nicely. The 4.0 has more torque and a more sophisticated box, but the 3.2 is smoother.
Get the best body work you can as that is likely to be the most expensive bit to sort.
The X300 is the best saloon car in history. Simple as that.
me? biased, no I don't think so
I only owned and then drove my X300 XJR for two days so far, so my impressions are purely initial. But I think the suspension is possibly borderline hard for todays pot holed terrible roads. I could and probably will leave it alone. But it did cross my mind - I wonder if some people ever fitted the softer springs from non XJR models to these?
I previously owned a V12 XJS many years ago. That was much smoother than the XJR. But then again the MPG was single digits so hardly worth comparing!
I bet a non supercharged 4.0 with soft springs would be a great daily.
I previously owned a V12 XJS many years ago. That was much smoother than the XJR. But then again the MPG was single digits so hardly worth comparing!
I bet a non supercharged 4.0 with soft springs would be a great daily.
Ecurie Ecosse said:
Previous X300 XJR. Lots of fun, and a design classic IMHO. The wheels are just so right.
This is one of the reasons I went for the same model. I have always really loved the looks, ever since a neighbour arrived in a brand new one. That classic body in black, with polish XJR wheels is a lovely sight.k-ink said:
I only owned and then drove my X300 XJR for two days so far, so my impressions are purely initial. But I think the suspension is possibly borderline hard for todays pot holed terrible roads. I could and probably will leave it alone. But it did cross my mind - I wonder if some people ever fitted the softer springs from non XJR models to these?
The wheels/tyres make a BIG differanceGo for 18" wheels for comfort, 20" if you are showing off to the size of your manhood
Thanks for your replies guys, all really helpful. I must admit I am leaning towards The older x300 but need to get out and have a look at/ drive a few of both. I know that running an older exec car has potential for bigger bills and obviously higher running costs but both of these seem stunning value at the moment - I just need to find a good one!
Finding a good one is the most important of all.
As far as ride comfort goes the very best you'll get is the X300 on 16 inch wheels fitted with 60 profile tyres and touring suspension. Next is the X300 sport suspension version which (although the X308 feels much crisper to drive) is roughly equal (Ive owned both) to the X308 with touring suspension on 16" wheels.
The X308 with sport suspension usually has 55, not 60 profile tyres, again on 16" wheels. Fitted with a rear as well as a uprated front anti roll bar this is the point in the XJ range IMO where ride quality starts to go seriously wrong. Even without taking suspension variables into consideration Google TRC tyre calculator, put the various wheel/tyre size combinations in and watch the subjective comfort rating fall off a cliff if you don't believe me.
I had a sports suspension X308 fitted with 17" Celtics and 50 profile tyres
prior to my current X308. Ride quality was abysmal on anything except billiard table smooth roads - it crashed and banged over even minor road imperfections. On bad roads it made the CD player in the boot occasionally skip and set off several rattles behind the dash. Binning the Celtics and fitting 16" wheels and 60 profile tyres improved it but even then it was nowhere as good as you'd expect from an XJ
IMO If you drive a lot on bad or broken road surfaces any larger wheel/low profile tyre/sport suspension combination XJ is terrible and none of the post 1995 XJs are anywhere near as good as the earlier XJ40 and Series cars which are the ones that established Jaguars' reputation for ride quality.
Ive driven literally hundreds of thousands of miles in various XJs and frankly - as an ex Renault mechanic and owner of literally dozens of French cars too - if you want seriously good ride quality buy a Renault or Citroen. The completely shagged 1.2 Clio we hired in the Canaries a few weeks ago rode better then my XJ. The Brother in laws Megane is lovely. The C3 Picasso we hired in France and the C4 in Spain last year were absolutely superb and so is our usual Taxi firms Peugeot. Even my knackered old daily driver Kangoo van rides better then my XJ8 over the smashed and broken potholed mess our local authorities refer to as roads.
Sport suspension cars have a lower ride height too. Otherwise identical cars and wheels; Touring suspension on the left, sport on the right. Look at the differnt door mirror heights
As far as ride comfort goes the very best you'll get is the X300 on 16 inch wheels fitted with 60 profile tyres and touring suspension. Next is the X300 sport suspension version which (although the X308 feels much crisper to drive) is roughly equal (Ive owned both) to the X308 with touring suspension on 16" wheels.
The X308 with sport suspension usually has 55, not 60 profile tyres, again on 16" wheels. Fitted with a rear as well as a uprated front anti roll bar this is the point in the XJ range IMO where ride quality starts to go seriously wrong. Even without taking suspension variables into consideration Google TRC tyre calculator, put the various wheel/tyre size combinations in and watch the subjective comfort rating fall off a cliff if you don't believe me.
I had a sports suspension X308 fitted with 17" Celtics and 50 profile tyres
prior to my current X308. Ride quality was abysmal on anything except billiard table smooth roads - it crashed and banged over even minor road imperfections. On bad roads it made the CD player in the boot occasionally skip and set off several rattles behind the dash. Binning the Celtics and fitting 16" wheels and 60 profile tyres improved it but even then it was nowhere as good as you'd expect from an XJ
IMO If you drive a lot on bad or broken road surfaces any larger wheel/low profile tyre/sport suspension combination XJ is terrible and none of the post 1995 XJs are anywhere near as good as the earlier XJ40 and Series cars which are the ones that established Jaguars' reputation for ride quality.
Ive driven literally hundreds of thousands of miles in various XJs and frankly - as an ex Renault mechanic and owner of literally dozens of French cars too - if you want seriously good ride quality buy a Renault or Citroen. The completely shagged 1.2 Clio we hired in the Canaries a few weeks ago rode better then my XJ. The Brother in laws Megane is lovely. The C3 Picasso we hired in France and the C4 in Spain last year were absolutely superb and so is our usual Taxi firms Peugeot. Even my knackered old daily driver Kangoo van rides better then my XJ8 over the smashed and broken potholed mess our local authorities refer to as roads.
Sport suspension cars have a lower ride height too. Otherwise identical cars and wheels; Touring suspension on the left, sport on the right. Look at the differnt door mirror heights
Edited by Jaguar steve on Tuesday 30th April 22:08
I must admit I am a little disappointed by the ride quality in my X308 XJR, I fear I was spoilt by the comfiness of my brothers old X350 V8 sport which I feel was smoother despite being on 19" wheels. Then again that is probably down to the air suspension vs the CATS on my car. I have had a look at downgrading the wheels but I can't find any 17" or 16" wheels which I like the look of. The only other wheels I really like are the BBS Milans which are annoyingly the same size as my current wheels.
giblet said:
I must admit I am a little disappointed by the ride quality in my X308 XJR, I fear I was spoilt by the comfiness of my brothers old X350 V8 sport which I feel was smoother despite being on 19" wheels. Then again that is probably down to the air suspension vs the CATS on my car. I have had a look at downgrading the wheels but I can't find any 17" or 16" wheels which I like the look of. The only other wheels I really like are the BBS Milans which are annoyingly the same size as my current wheels.
i have a 99 x308 on milans and i find the ride a little harsh if i am pottering aboutI bought a x300 4.0 Sport about 2 years ago for £600. Spent about £1000 for a full service, new after market shocks (stiffer than the XJR), new thermostat , new hoses and new rear view mirror. I've since done 30k miles on it and I love it to bits. It's plenty powerful and it's running on 255/40/17/. I don't find it too bumpy on the South London roads and it feels well planted on the motorway.
Just my 2p
Just my 2p
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