Too much toe in
Author
Discussion

aceparts

Original Poster:

3,724 posts

258 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
A bit last minute (for a track day) I've discovered my car was set with 30 minutes of toe in total (0.15 degrees each side) instead of 5 minutes total +/-5

Porsche 993 btw.

Typically, how much do I need to wind the track rod in to get somewhere closer to ideal? I was thinking 1/6th of a turn each side.

Should I even bother?

Cheers!

PaulKemp

979 posts

162 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
As 1/16th turn is a guess I would suggest getting it set by someone with the guages

Matt Seabrook

563 posts

268 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
How do you know it 30mins toe in and cant you use the gauges you have measured this on already?

aceparts

Original Poster:

3,724 posts

258 months

Monday 29th April 2013
quotequote all
I had it aligned on a hunter machine. Drove it away, all is well. Looked at the printouts... Just a bit too much toe in according to the specs so must have been operator error. Unfortunately they're 100 miles in the wrong direction!

Nick1point9

3,920 posts

197 months

Tuesday 30th April 2013
quotequote all
Assuming the track rod end is around a 1.25mm pitch then a 16th of a turn will move change the track rod length by 80 microns, which is roughly the width of a human hair.

Pay someone to do it for you.

ETA I've just seen that you actually wrote 1/6, which would only be around 200 microns, so again would make almost no difference what so ever.

ETA there are 60 minutes in 1 degree so 30 minutes would be 0.25deg per side not 0.15deg.

Edited by Nick1point9 on Wednesday 1st May 05:50

944Nick

1,088 posts

231 months

Friday 3rd May 2013
quotequote all
I did these calculations for my own 993 a couple of weeks ago. If anyone can spot any mistakes please let me know!

170 170 170 170 170 170
0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25
1 2 3 4 5 6
0.25 0.5 0.75 1 1.25 1.5
0.001470588 0.002941176 0.004411765 0.005882353 0.007352941 0.008823529
0.001470589 0.002941181 0.004411779 0.005882387 0.007353007 0.008823644
0.08 0.17 0.25 0.34 0.42 0.51
5.1 10.1 15.2 20.2 25.3 30.3

Each row represents:

Length of steering arm (mm)
Change in Opposite side length / flat (since the thread pitch is 0.66 per mm)
Number of flats turned
Total length of Opposite side (mm)
Sine x (where x is the angle between straight ahead and the angle of the wheel)
x (radians)
x (degrees)
x (minutes)

According to the above. each 1/6 ("flat") gives 5.1 minutes of toe in or out depending on which way you're turning the assembly. The calculation is of course specific to the length of the steering arm on the hub but once you've measured this the same calculation can be used for any vehicle.

Nick

Edited by 944Nick on Friday 3rd May 18:47

Matt Seabrook

563 posts

268 months

Monday 6th May 2013
quotequote all
When you consider I will normally lock the track rod off check the readings on our wheel aligner loosen it off because the toe setting moves when tightened. This process normally takes 3 or 4 goes before I'm happy. Any doing this by measuring threads and adjusting by hope will be just play lucky to get it correct.

Nick1point9

3,920 posts

197 months

Tuesday 7th May 2013
quotequote all
944Nick said:
I did these calculations for my own 993 a couple of weeks ago. If anyone can spot any mistakes please let me know!

170 170 170 170 170 170
0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25
1 2 3 4 5 6
0.25 0.5 0.75 1 1.25 1.5
0.001470588 0.002941176 0.004411765 0.005882353 0.007352941 0.008823529
0.001470589 0.002941181 0.004411779 0.005882387 0.007353007 0.008823644
0.08 0.17 0.25 0.34 0.42 0.51
5.1 10.1 15.2 20.2 25.3 30.3

Each row represents:

Length of steering arm (mm)
Change in Opposite side length / flat (since the thread pitch is 0.66 per mm)
Number of flats turned
Total length of Opposite side (mm)
Sine x (where x is the angle between straight ahead and the angle of the wheel)
x (radians)
x (degrees)
x (minutes)

According to the above. each 1/6 ("flat") gives 5.1 minutes of toe in or out depending on which way you're turning the assembly. The calculation is of course specific to the length of the steering arm on the hub but once you've measured this the same calculation can be used for any vehicle.

Nick

Edited by 944Nick on Friday 3rd May 18:47
That assumes that the outboard steering arm is parallel with the vehicle centre line, which it most likely wouldn't be.

944Nick

1,088 posts

231 months

Monday 13th May 2013
quotequote all
I don't believe it makes any difference, especially for the very small angles we are talking about. However, if you are not convinced, I would be genuinely happy to understand why you believe it to be a flawed calculation.

Nick1point9

3,920 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2013
quotequote all
It does make a difference but its virtually immeasurable! I thought it might be a bit more when I made that comment, then ran the numbers and its much less than I expected and probably less than the slop in the track rod end ball joint!

944Nick

1,088 posts

231 months

Thursday 16th May 2013
quotequote all
I think we are violently agreeing http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/9.gif