Open-sourced kit car design
Discussion
Do you think it would be possible or sensible to create a kit car design based on the consensus of a forum on the internet? Say the users agreed a basic theme the design should take (I was thinking last night a 3-up mid-engined car based LOOSELY around the McLaren F1 style), then had threads to sort the chassis design, decide on a drivetrain configuration, suspension geometry, suitable donor parts etc etc. The three up configuration would be an unusual selling point, and a central driving position means it can be sold worldwide without left/right hand drive variations.
The objective would be to use as many donor vehicle parts as possible. The crowdsourcing nature of the project would make it easier to identify these. For example, if round taillights were preferred, somebody out there will know the best and cheapest options to use.
Say there would be a potential audience of 5,000 people worldwide willing to contribute to the design and identifying donor parts from existing vehicles. The expertise is definitely out there. Once the design was finished there might be another 5,000 or so people who would want to build the car based on the free plans online. If any bespoke parts were needed such as a windscreen or glassfibre body moulds that would probably be enough critical mass to get parts made to order.
Potentially the infinite monkey theory could work, no? There would likely be disagreements so you might have to have three or four variants to keep everybody happy. As long as they were based on the same fundamental theme it should work.
I have no angle here but would love to see this happen. I'm not really involved in the kit car world and don't know if something like this has been done already. Reading Alan Staniforth's rally and race car source book has inspired me to ask the question though.
The objective would be to use as many donor vehicle parts as possible. The crowdsourcing nature of the project would make it easier to identify these. For example, if round taillights were preferred, somebody out there will know the best and cheapest options to use.
Say there would be a potential audience of 5,000 people worldwide willing to contribute to the design and identifying donor parts from existing vehicles. The expertise is definitely out there. Once the design was finished there might be another 5,000 or so people who would want to build the car based on the free plans online. If any bespoke parts were needed such as a windscreen or glassfibre body moulds that would probably be enough critical mass to get parts made to order.
Potentially the infinite monkey theory could work, no? There would likely be disagreements so you might have to have three or four variants to keep everybody happy. As long as they were based on the same fundamental theme it should work.
I have no angle here but would love to see this happen. I'm not really involved in the kit car world and don't know if something like this has been done already. Reading Alan Staniforth's rally and race car source book has inspired me to ask the question though.
design by committee sounds like a truly massive headache.
Far better to have one person's vision and sub-contracting out bits that the visionary isn't confident/competent enough to do him/herself.
The downside of that method is the ego gets in the way and stuff that should get subbed out (usually on aesthetic or safety grounds) doesn't.
Far better to have one person's vision and sub-contracting out bits that the visionary isn't confident/competent enough to do him/herself.
The downside of that method is the ego gets in the way and stuff that should get subbed out (usually on aesthetic or safety grounds) doesn't.
Life Saab Itch said:
design by committee sounds like a truly massive headache.
Far better to have one person's vision and sub-contracting out bits that the visionary isn't confident/competent enough to do him/herself.
This.Far better to have one person's vision and sub-contracting out bits that the visionary isn't confident/competent enough to do him/herself.
And something like a McLaren F1 replica is way too complex to be viable.
What you want is something nice and simple... like, for example, a Locost Seven.
....no, wait...
Silent1 said:
You mean like wikispeed?
http://www.wikispeed.com/
Yes, similar to that, but focused on performance rather than economy. http://www.wikispeed.com/
I too would love to see it work.
Unfortunately Project Splitwheel proved it can't and that was with the backing of Caterham and other significant players.
A shame really as it started out quite exciting, however quickly became wrapped up in itself and collapsed after a year or so. If memory served, the "financial crisis" was cited as the main reason for failure, however I would imagine another big factor is that design by committee never works without a single person (or very small group of people) being responsible and accountable for decision making and delivery of a finished product.
We could have another go though....?
Unfortunately Project Splitwheel proved it can't and that was with the backing of Caterham and other significant players.
A shame really as it started out quite exciting, however quickly became wrapped up in itself and collapsed after a year or so. If memory served, the "financial crisis" was cited as the main reason for failure, however I would imagine another big factor is that design by committee never works without a single person (or very small group of people) being responsible and accountable for decision making and delivery of a finished product.
We could have another go though....?
There have been several 'Open Sourced' car projects and in fact some of them have worked out. Sadly though I don't think there's enough like minded folk in the UK to break through the negative attitude that's ingrained into the British psyche to achieve the sort of results the OP is hoping for. However! that's not to say it can't be done and I'd very much recommend looking to a different 'place' that has a positive attitude and culture than a British one.
You see the British culture is generally one of... You can't do that. Isn't there a law against it?
In America however there's a huge culture of. Hell! That's a good idea, let's do it!
Sooo, why not check out the Rally Fighter, where they have built and run several of these
In fact everything you have mentioned in essence is already set up and is working with this organisation
http://localmotors.com/
I'm a great fan of Open Source and I'm up for joining in with a vehicle though my two penneth is that with a 3 seater Mclaren type car you're being a bit overly ambitious. As has been said already a more realistic car is a Locost Seven but that's already been done,,, thousands of times.
If anyone wants to have a chat about the idea in the real world, as opposed to the virtual one, then I'm at Stoneleigh this weekend and I'll be found via the Midas Owners Club and the Zebra camouflaged Midas Mk2, which is one of my projects. Complete Kit Car had a go at designing a new kit car with their Project X but that seemed to vanish in quite a short period of time. There was lots of discussion about it here and in the real world.
You see the British culture is generally one of... You can't do that. Isn't there a law against it?
In America however there's a huge culture of. Hell! That's a good idea, let's do it!
Sooo, why not check out the Rally Fighter, where they have built and run several of these
In fact everything you have mentioned in essence is already set up and is working with this organisation
http://localmotors.com/
I'm a great fan of Open Source and I'm up for joining in with a vehicle though my two penneth is that with a 3 seater Mclaren type car you're being a bit overly ambitious. As has been said already a more realistic car is a Locost Seven but that's already been done,,, thousands of times.
If anyone wants to have a chat about the idea in the real world, as opposed to the virtual one, then I'm at Stoneleigh this weekend and I'll be found via the Midas Owners Club and the Zebra camouflaged Midas Mk2, which is one of my projects. Complete Kit Car had a go at designing a new kit car with their Project X but that seemed to vanish in quite a short period of time. There was lots of discussion about it here and in the real world.
Edited by qdos on Wednesday 1st May 04:17
part of the trouble with that was the vote on the body design. None of the designs were realistic to produce and they all looked like 80s concept cars. this, to my mind, will have turned a lot of interest away from the project.
No one is going to invest time or money in something that they wouldn't want to be seen driving.
This is one of the biggest areas in the kit car industry where companies are a victim of their own ego, in thinking that what they like will sell.
beauty is in the eye of the be(er)holder.
No one is going to invest time or money in something that they wouldn't want to be seen driving.
This is one of the biggest areas in the kit car industry where companies are a victim of their own ego, in thinking that what they like will sell.
beauty is in the eye of the be(er)holder.
I run a Porsche 924 and it's only just occurred to me that thanks to internet forums, maintaining and developing that could be considered an open-source project, because everything about the car is already online, as is expertise if I need to solve a problem.
It's interesting to read that the committee element and especially the body design lets a lot of projects down. The attraction of having potentially thousands of people involved is that decisions could be made by vote and you could get bespoke parts like body moulds etc made relatively easily, if the company making them knew the customer base was there. If no trademark were applied to the design, competition would spring up - but you'd have to keep an eye on quality control.You could even have three or four body designs, but the one that most people wanted would be the cheapest due to economies of scale.
This was a competition some time ago where people voted on how a GT40 replica build was specified. In my opinion they put the wrong wheels on it:
http://www.forza4westfield.co.uk/
I would love to go to Stoneleigh but it's impossible. If anybody ever does put this project together I'd happily give it a push on my website.
It's interesting to read that the committee element and especially the body design lets a lot of projects down. The attraction of having potentially thousands of people involved is that decisions could be made by vote and you could get bespoke parts like body moulds etc made relatively easily, if the company making them knew the customer base was there. If no trademark were applied to the design, competition would spring up - but you'd have to keep an eye on quality control.You could even have three or four body designs, but the one that most people wanted would be the cheapest due to economies of scale.
This was a competition some time ago where people voted on how a GT40 replica build was specified. In my opinion they put the wrong wheels on it:
http://www.forza4westfield.co.uk/
I would love to go to Stoneleigh but it's impossible. If anybody ever does put this project together I'd happily give it a push on my website.
OK, like the idea and I have a few ideas to take forward.
I have an idea for a 3 wheeler. I have a fairly defined vision of what the styling should be like, and have narrowed,it down to 2 different (but similar) concepts. They won't appeal to everyone, but as I see it, if that's the case, people who don't like it won't participate. As I see it, by having quite a tight concept in the first place, the dangers of making a camel should be overcome!
Lets say someone out there donates some web space to run the idea.
I put my ideas up, people make suggestions and one of the 2 formats is selected.
Contributors then solve the issues and produce a viable set of solutions/ plans.
It is the next step that I can't close the loop on!
The Ron Champion experience shows us that if you put the information out there freely, someone will start to make chassis, body parts etc. if the idea is any good, and they will make a profit from everyone else's endeavours.
Perhaps make the plans avaiable for a small fee, which gives out a chassis number and a 'license' to make 1 only. Contributors are allocated a share of any proceeds, depending on the perceived value of their input? Or perhaps, once the design is finished, make the chassis freely available but take contributions to get moulds made up and retain the rights to these? Suggestions.???
I will happily provide my 3 wheeler ideas to start such a scheme - can we find a way to make it work?
I have an idea for a 3 wheeler. I have a fairly defined vision of what the styling should be like, and have narrowed,it down to 2 different (but similar) concepts. They won't appeal to everyone, but as I see it, if that's the case, people who don't like it won't participate. As I see it, by having quite a tight concept in the first place, the dangers of making a camel should be overcome!
Lets say someone out there donates some web space to run the idea.
I put my ideas up, people make suggestions and one of the 2 formats is selected.
Contributors then solve the issues and produce a viable set of solutions/ plans.
It is the next step that I can't close the loop on!
The Ron Champion experience shows us that if you put the information out there freely, someone will start to make chassis, body parts etc. if the idea is any good, and they will make a profit from everyone else's endeavours.
Perhaps make the plans avaiable for a small fee, which gives out a chassis number and a 'license' to make 1 only. Contributors are allocated a share of any proceeds, depending on the perceived value of their input? Or perhaps, once the design is finished, make the chassis freely available but take contributions to get moulds made up and retain the rights to these? Suggestions.???
I will happily provide my 3 wheeler ideas to start such a scheme - can we find a way to make it work?
Mistrale said:
Lets say someone out there donates some web space to run the idea.
I will be happy to supply webspace. Come and chat to me at Stoneleigh on Saturday or Sunday (not sure if I'll be there Monday too) I'll be somewhere around the Midas Owners Club area You'll easily spot my car as it'll be the one with the Zebra Camouflage if/when i get chance i would be happy to contribute too. Just coming to the end of my Automotive Design degree and would be happy to pen a few ideas out/make some 3d models if i don't get a full time job immediately.
I have a thread running over here on my final project:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
as well as other stuff on my own website which you can get to via my profile on here.
I haven't taken any pictures of the clay this week, but it is getting there and is beginning to look good at last
I have a thread running over here on my final project:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
as well as other stuff on my own website which you can get to via my profile on here.
I haven't taken any pictures of the clay this week, but it is getting there and is beginning to look good at last
qdos said:
Mistrale said:
Lets say someone out there donates some web space to run the idea.
I will be happy to supply webspace. Come and chat to me at Stoneleigh on Saturday or Sunday (not sure if I'll be there Monday too) I'll be somewhere around the Midas Owners Club area You'll easily spot my car as it'll be the one with the Zebra Camouflage Cheers mate
Italo
nsa said:
I was thinking last night a 3-up mid-engined car based LOOSELY around the McLaren F1 style
The most expensive and difficult part of the car, bodywork, is also the most contentious.Three abreast seating? Note that nobody else in the last twenty years, including McLaren itself, has copied this idea.
The dorsal intake? Aerodynamically good, apparently, but not exactly practical as you do need to see out.
nsa said:
then had threads to sort the chassis design, decide on a drivetrain configuration, suspension geometry, suitable donor parts etc etc.
See above!Nobody will ever agree on this stuff. However see below.
nsa said:
For example, if round taillights were preferred, somebody out there will know the best and cheapest options to use.
This is actually useful. A wiki of part dimensions, known fixes, weights, known problems, etc might be the best result. Parts suppliers might even want to advertise on such a site. You'd need a lot of data to get it going though.In the real world the locost forums probably have this covered.
TheLastPost said:
Life Saab Itch said:
design by committee sounds like a truly massive headache.
Far better to have one person's vision and sub-contracting out bits that the visionary isn't confident/competent enough to do him/herself.
This.Far better to have one person's vision and sub-contracting out bits that the visionary isn't confident/competent enough to do him/herself.
And something like a McLaren F1 replica is way too complex to be viable.
What you want is something nice and simple... like, for example, a Locost Seven.
....no, wait...
Locost Seven- boring (because it's been done). Not a very helpful suggestion.
To reduce problems with styling/different directions, why not agree on a chassis, and then let other groups design various bodies? A universal chassis that can be used with say a few different powertrains, bolt on roll cages for different roof styles could maybe made to work. One chassis fits all.
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