Making a living as a Photographer
Discussion
I get quite a few young people emailing me through my website or flickr asking about how I got started with photography and that they hoped they can one day be like me, blah blah.
I feel like I'm crushing thier dreams when I write back and tell them that I don't earn a living through photography as I don't think there is enough money in it, especially in a specialised area like Hot Rods and Kustom Kulture. I also explain to them that they will only spend 20% of thier time taking photos and the rest being a credit controller, marketing manager, project manager and photoshop monkey.
Am I telling them the right thing? I'm sure they could make it work if they are good business people and determined enough. I had already started earning good money from my day job before I got into photography so to try and match that was a non starter for me.
I guess this is a question for the pros, is it as tough out there as I think it is?
I feel like I'm crushing thier dreams when I write back and tell them that I don't earn a living through photography as I don't think there is enough money in it, especially in a specialised area like Hot Rods and Kustom Kulture. I also explain to them that they will only spend 20% of thier time taking photos and the rest being a credit controller, marketing manager, project manager and photoshop monkey.
Am I telling them the right thing? I'm sure they could make it work if they are good business people and determined enough. I had already started earning good money from my day job before I got into photography so to try and match that was a non starter for me.
I guess this is a question for the pros, is it as tough out there as I think it is?
andybuk99 said:
I am a commercial photographer and it is hard work out there. I continue to get folio's sent through to me from school/college leavers and the the contents are all arty farty stuff that wont pay the bills.
Yes, I was forgetting that aspect of it, not being able to shoot what you want but what the client needs 
I thought this was about right.... http://fstoppers.com/building-wealth-as-a-photogra... especially point 6
andybuk99 said:
I am a commercial photographer and it is hard work out there. I continue to get folio's sent through to me from school/college leavers and the the contents are all arty farty stuff that wont pay the bills.
You can say that again. I went to the end of year degree show in London a while back as a mate's daughter is doing a BA Hons in photography. 99% hanging on the wall was garbage.. even as art it was dire. I imagine 99% who left last year are all waving their BAs about, but are working in shops or Maccy Ds or on benefits. The vast majority are unemployable.Having said that, you don't need a qualification. It is possible to make a living, but you have be that much better, or work in some specialisation. You also need the people and business skills, as well as drive and determination.
In the old days, when we had film, getting reliable photography was that bit harder. With the advent of digital, it's a lot easier, you can see if you've cocked it up there and then, rather than a day later, when you get the film back. Therefor, lots of keen snappers may well do company photographs for a pat on the back and see their work in print, stuff that maybe pro's starting out would have done in the past.
I see the gap between what used to be beginners, intermediate and top professionals disappear. In the old days, you may have made a living starting out or being intermediate, but now the only people I see making a living full time, paying mortgages, maintaining equipment, studios etc, are a small percentage of talent at the top.
So...
Nick Grant said:
I guess this is a question for the pros, is it as tough out there as I think it is?
Very much yes!The other thing I'd say if anyone gets rosy eyed about turning there hobby into their job is, don't! Your passion for it will die with the stress of paying bills, meeting deadlines and satisfying someone else.
Thanks for the responses guys, all in line with what I was thinking.
Just want to be clear when I do stuff for magazines etc I charge as much as the next man so I'm not erroding rates by subsidising my photography with my day job. I just about managed to keep it as an enjoyable hobby with a bit of a cash reward
Edited to say that I suppose I could send them George Williams way, I guess is doing what they are looking to do, but he must be one in 10,000
Just want to be clear when I do stuff for magazines etc I charge as much as the next man so I'm not erroding rates by subsidising my photography with my day job. I just about managed to keep it as an enjoyable hobby with a bit of a cash reward
Edited to say that I suppose I could send them George Williams way, I guess is doing what they are looking to do, but he must be one in 10,000
A friend of mine at work is currently doing his MA in photography as part of his resettlement and I'm often staggered to hear stories of people on the course not knowing even basic camera handling skills. His course in particular is very artistry-driven so from that perspective I can't really comment, but he seems to spend more time writing about his pictures than taking them.
I'd like to say something positive about where photography in general is heading, but I'll admit I'm struggling. Even in the niche I work in, it's become increasingly cut-throat and there are so many people chomping at the bit to get involved that it's easy to see why. As ever, being "different" will only get you so far and it will always be who you know, rather than what.
I'm fortunate enough to work in an environment where I am shooting things I'm interested in and make a full-time living from it. Eventually though I'll have to grow up and I know that shooting the things I enjoy will end up taking a back seat so I can earn more money.
I'd like to say something positive about where photography in general is heading, but I'll admit I'm struggling. Even in the niche I work in, it's become increasingly cut-throat and there are so many people chomping at the bit to get involved that it's easy to see why. As ever, being "different" will only get you so far and it will always be who you know, rather than what.
I'm fortunate enough to work in an environment where I am shooting things I'm interested in and make a full-time living from it. Eventually though I'll have to grow up and I know that shooting the things I enjoy will end up taking a back seat so I can earn more money.
Rogue86 said:
A friend of mine at work is currently doing his MA in photography as part of his resettlement and I'm often staggered to hear stories of people on the course not knowing even basic camera handling skills. His course in particular is very artistry-driven so from that perspective I can't really comment, but he seems to spend more time writing about his pictures than taking them.
Yep, the 'lecturers', and I use the term advisedly, are all career, salaried academics, who wouldn't last 1 minute in the real world. They don't care about the kids passing through, it's morally and professionally disgusting really. Credit to my little protege, she does want to do commercial photography and likes Avedon, Penn and the like, but is criticised for being too commercial 'it is a Bachelor of 'arts' after all', so all that matters is the 2000 word 'narrative'.Even when she did A level at 6th form, I tried to teach her the importance and understanding of shooting in RAW. After her interview for the BA she informed me that the 'head' (Richard?) said they teach the pupils to shoot in RAW. Some hope I thought.... until about a month ago, halfway through her course, she was opening files in ACR in front of me, no adjustments, just clicking 'open'. That was it. I think she thought that just shooting in RAW was the best format, to give best results... completely missing the point! Obviously been taught nothing!
Histograms, colour temperature, polarising filters, work flow? Hasn't a clue. When I try to explain, she just looks confused, but it's stuff any pro should know in his sleep, second nature, no need to think about it. All very worrying. I know the next smart phone will solve lots of problems, automatically, but it will still have limits....
Credit where it's due, it's great to see some of the keen snappers on these threads, at all levels, who are keen to learn and ask for help and advice and then soak it up! And there are some great images posted here, no BA needed!
Nick Grant said:
I guess this is a question for the pros, is it as tough out there as I think it is?
I earn a small living from it in the summer, but it's a niche souvenir photography thing, rather than full on project work for individual clients. A lot of the other photographers I know who do souvenir stuff have portfolios, but it's the souvenir boring s
t that pays the bills.The wedding photographers that I see out and about all have other angles that they come from, like the girl a few weekends ago who was incredibly well connected with other college girls, or the hairdresser that does wedding photography as a side business (doing women's hair puts you in a perfect position for marketing yourself).
The key seems to be the ability to market yourself than take the photographs.
The other problem in this field is the cost of entry to the business - a digital SLR. That's it. Buy one and you too can be that photographer you always wanted to be no matter how awful you really are.
There are a couple of guys that are full time landscape photographers up here in the Highlands - and the only way they can do it is to make hundreds of thousands of calendars and postcards, and get them into every conceivable retail outlet, which is both expensive, and a right kerfuffle.
The trouble with photography as a living (IMHO) is the lack of meaningful royalties. Most jobs are 'one offs' and even if you have thousands of stock photos, the amount of money available isn't great.
This month has earned me quite a bit (couple of double page photos in national mags), but I'll earn more dosh from one of my music compositions in any given period than all of my photographic efforts put together. Photography needs a PRS equiv!
The trouble with photography as a living (IMHO) is the lack of meaningful royalties. Most jobs are 'one offs' and even if you have thousands of stock photos, the amount of money available isn't great.
This month has earned me quite a bit (couple of double page photos in national mags), but I'll earn more dosh from one of my music compositions in any given period than all of my photographic efforts put together. Photography needs a PRS equiv!
I bought this book a while ago out of academic interest - I have a Masters Degree in business, work full time for a blue chip and make enough to own a 900 sq foot studio as an indulgence.
It's a course book on photography courses so I was interested in what they're being taught.
http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Successful-Photograp...
I shoot portraits and portfolios in my spare time and quickly came to the conclusion to give up my day job and go full time would be insane. As a second income, or a vehicle to a small fortune (start with a big one) it's OK but with few exceptions it's not going to be a route to riches. Unless of course you choose porn / pay per view as a friend has done! His Porsche is rather nice!
Oh, and as others have said photographic skill is much less relevant to success than business acumen and sheer hard work at promotion, pricing, placement, packaging, etc.
It's a course book on photography courses so I was interested in what they're being taught.
http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Successful-Photograp...
I shoot portraits and portfolios in my spare time and quickly came to the conclusion to give up my day job and go full time would be insane. As a second income, or a vehicle to a small fortune (start with a big one) it's OK but with few exceptions it's not going to be a route to riches. Unless of course you choose porn / pay per view as a friend has done! His Porsche is rather nice!
Oh, and as others have said photographic skill is much less relevant to success than business acumen and sheer hard work at promotion, pricing, placement, packaging, etc.
RobDickinson said:
Look at Trey Ratclif.
Yes he's a decent photographer, and got in on a bandwagon (hdr) early, but his work rate marketing and networking are out of this world. 4.5 million followers on G+. Sold out an $8000 5 day tour here in NZ in seconds. Incredible, but room for how many ?
The Photo Tour thing seems to be popular with many names in the photographic field running their own or joining up to some of the larger events when the opportunity allows. Similarly the non-tour events like Gulf Photo Plus seem to attract good numbers despite a relatively high cost of attendance (especially if you have to travel and stay in Dubai).Yes he's a decent photographer, and got in on a bandwagon (hdr) early, but his work rate marketing and networking are out of this world. 4.5 million followers on G+. Sold out an $8000 5 day tour here in NZ in seconds. Incredible, but room for how many ?
However from some comments I have read it seems that quite a few attendees are regulars - presumably they see these things as an instructive holiday. So the networking to build a client base may pay off to guarantee the underlying costs for each year through repeat business. If you can get a decent event balance and gain a core following or repeat business early in.
However it seems to me that to do so you either need to identify a stock of well heeled enthusiasts who are prepared to pump money into perpetual learning as well as what goes into their kit bag and on their computers or look for people who take the odd snap (often Landscapes) as part of a holiday and will spend the holiday budget on a photography based gathering so that the cost per worthy photo is defrayed as 'holiday' with talking point images for the memories.
I have no idea of the economics involved but many organisers seem to have what must be quite significant overheads so I presume that such events are able to find enough support from premium price holiday buyers with an interest in photography on a repeat business basis.
Clearly there are "enough" people around to support markets like these at the moment. Whether that will remain the case is an unknown but for now they presumably act as a nice income padding or, in the case of GPP, a serious and recognised business "convention" event. However I suspect one would need to find a way to a point where you can afford to employ staff (even if they are volunteers they will need managing and oversight) before such events can be run successfully on a scale that produces anything like a substantial income.
In the meantime there are always weddings .... for the brave.
GetCarter said:
There are a couple of guys that are full time landscape photographers up here in the Highlands - and the only way they can do it is to make hundreds of thousands of calendars and postcards, and get them into every conceivable retail outlet, which is both expensive, and a right kerfuffle.
I hear the likes of Joe Cornish make more out of doing workshops and the like nowadays. Sales from Landscape and travel stock are dead thanks to iStock etc. If a keen amateur with a bit of knowledge stands next to a pro, snapping Lake Louise in the Rockies, he'll get a perfectly acceptable result with a £600 camera.Glad to be moving out of stills.
Bacardi said:
GetCarter said:
There are a couple of guys that are full time landscape photographers up here in the Highlands - and the only way they can do it is to make hundreds of thousands of calendars and postcards, and get them into every conceivable retail outlet, which is both expensive, and a right kerfuffle.
I hear the likes of Joe Cornish make more out of doing workshops and the like nowadays. Sales from Landscape and travel stock are dead thanks to iStock etc. If a keen amateur with a bit of knowledge stands next to a pro, snapping Lake Louise in the Rockies, he'll get a perfectly acceptable result with a £600 camera.Glad to be moving out of stills.
That said the cost of entry (beyond even the photographic hardware) seems highish and the processes potentially time consuming. Maybe that is a good thing for creating and keeping a Pro market for a while - if the output can be turned into proper revenue.
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