Mismatched hi-fi components

[Itsallicanafford]

Dear all,

I was wondering if somebody might give me some technical advice on my current set-up as I think that I might have some mismatched components.

Cd - rotel crd-02
Pre-amp: Naim Nac 112
Power amp: Naim Nap150
Speakers: Epos m12.2

I am finding that detail is very good but the system lacks bass.

The epos speakers are 120 watt stand mounts

The naim amp is rated at 50 wpc,

I would appreciate any advice, I have a feeling that the amp is struggling to drive the speakers correctly but I am no expert. I can quote some other stats from the owners manuals if this will help shed light on the problem.

Many thanks

[MagicalTrevor]

The 'watt' rating of your speaker is normally the 'peak' at which they can be driven for a very short period of time.

You should look at the impedance rating of the speakers as that determines how easy they are to drive. I may have got this wrong but 16ohm speakers are easier to drive than 4ohm speakers

If your speakers are 4ohm then it might be difficult for the amp to drive them and you would need more oomph.

I do however expect that the Epos speakers are lacking compared to your Naim kit. Also, are you using cheap (i.e. free) interconnects and speaker cable?

[mrmr96]

MagicalTrevor said:

I may have got this wrong but 16ohm speakers are easier to drive than 4ohm speakers

I think the lower the impedance (ohms) the easier they are to get volume out of, but that will be at the expense of control.

[MagicalTrevor]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. All I know is the impedance is more important

[Riff Raff]

mrmr96 said:

MagicalTrevor said:

I may have got this wrong but 16ohm speakers are easier to drive than 4ohm speakers

I think the lower the impedance (ohms) the easier they are to get volume out of, but that will be at the expense of control.

I think the figure you meed to look at is the sensitivity. The Epos are 87dB/1 watt/ 1 Metre, which is on the low side. The higher the sensitivity, the more volume you'll get from the amp/speaker combo. That said, I have a Naim Nait XS in my second system driving a pair of B+W 805s's, which are 88dB/w/m, and that is a combination that works really well.

As to the speakers being bass light, positioning is important. Follow the manufacturers guidelines to start with, and then fine tune from there.

Edited by Riff Raff on Monday 6th May 10:41

Edited by Riff Raff on Monday 6th May 11:29

[Itsallicanafford]

Thanks for all the responses, much appreciated...I'm using the NACA5 speaker cable + a good quality interconnect to the CD Player...I think that the error I made was to buy each component at different times, having heard them demoed with other stuff. I think that the sum of the parts don't quite add up and from what you are saying it might be time to look at replacing the epos speakers....got a 40th birthday on the horizon, I was thinking of a flatcap2 and CD5x (second hand) but it sounds like speakers might be more pressing...any recomendation?

[Le TVR]

Itsallicanafford said:

I am finding that detail is very good but the system lacks bass.

The M12.2 are small bookshelf units ported at around 60Hz. They are designed for speed and timing, not bass response.

[castex]

I have a chrome bumper naim setup of modest wattage. Thus powered, my shahinian obelisks kick out oodles of high quality low frequency. Take your amps and go try some alternative speakers if you can.

[Globs]

Le TVR said:

Itsallicanafford said:

I am finding that detail is very good but the system lacks bass.

The M12.2 are small bookshelf units ported at around 60Hz. They are designed for speed and timing, not bass response.

IIRC a low E of a bass guitar is 44Hz, so yes, you need bigger speakers or an active pair like the AVI ADM9.1.

[Itsallicanafford]

Globs said:

IIRC a low E of a bass guitar is 44Hz, so yes, you need bigger speakers or an active pair like the AVI ADM9.1.

..thanks for that, with this in mind, would a Sub woofer help as a stop gap measure, although it does somehow feel 'wrong', but i am not sure why. Also, not sure how this would be wired into the system?

[TonyRPH]

At the risk of stating the obvious...

Have you checked that your speakers are in phase?

Also - what stands are the speakers mounted on?

Finally - how light is your bass? Are you talking about not hearing super low organ notes, or are we talking about double bass / bass guitar / bass drum being a bit on the light side?

[Itsallicanafford]

TonyRPH said:

At the risk of stating the obvious...

Have you checked that your speakers are in phase?

Also - what stands are the speakers mounted on?

Finally - how light is your bass? Are you talking about not hearing super low organ notes, or are we talking about double bass / bass guitar / bass drum being a bit on the light side?

Many thanks for the response, they are on epos open frame stands and positioned 50cm from the wall. I certainly don't know how to check if they are in phase, can you elaborate? The bass guitar/ drum is very light, not sure what music you listen to but play Radiohead airbag, there is none of the bass guitar on the track, very strange...I reset the amp to its factory defaults but that didn't help..

[TonyRPH]

Itsallicanafford said:

<snip>I certainly don't know how to check if they are in phase, can you elaborate?<snip>

On the amplifier, the speaker terminals are labeled (+) and (-), and likewise on the speakers.

The speaker terminals are also colour coded RED (+) and BLACK (-).

You need to ensure that the cables go to the corresponding terminals - e.g. (+) on amplifier must go to (+) on speaker.

Some cable has markings to identify polarity - it may not be marked (+) or (-) but may simply have a stripe or writing on one side only.

If you're lucky, the cable may even be colour coded, which makes it a lot easier to check!

Another way to check is to use a 1.5V battery - but that involves unplugging cables etc., so may be too much of a "faff".

ETA: According to the spec on the Epos website, the M12.2 go down to 54Hz, which although not going to give floor shaking bass, should still sound pretty reasonable, a medium sized (12ft x 15ft x 9ft) room.

I suspect that either your speakers are out of phase, or you have some kind of room resonance which is cancelling out the bass.

For example - I used to have a pair of Dynaudio 52's (similar sized to the Epos you have), and if I placed them either side of the chimney breast, facing across the room - the bass was appalling. But facing down the length of the room, they would "kick ass" bass wise, for such a small speaker.

Can you give more detail of your room? Size and speaker placement would help.

Edited by TonyRPH on Monday 6th May 18:31

[Itsallicanafford]

TonyRPH said:

On the amplifier, the speaker terminals are labeled (+) and (-), and like wise on the speakers.

The terminals are also colour coded RED (+) and BLACK (-).

You need to ensure that the cables go to the corresponding terminals - e.g. (+) on amplifier must go to (+) on speaker.

Some cable has marking to identify polarity - it may not be marked (+) or (-) but may simply have a stripe or writing on one side only.

If you're lucky, the cable may even be colour coded, which makes it a lot easier to check!

Another way to check is to use a 1.5V battery - but that involves unplugging cables etc., so may be too much of a "faff".

ETA: According to the spec on the Epos website, the M12.2 go down to 54Hz, which although not going to give floor shaking bass, should still sound pretty reasonable, a medium sized (12ft x 15ft x 9ft) room.

I suspect that either your speakers are out of phase, or you have some kind of room resonance which is cancelling out the bass.

For example - I used to have a pair of Dynaudio 52's (similar sized to the Epos you have), and if I placed them either side of the chimney breast, facing across the room - the bass was appalling. But facing down the length of the room, they would "kick ass" bass wise, for such a small speaker.

Can you give more detail of your room? Size and speaker placement would help.

Thanks for the response, I will check the phasing...the room is approx 20x 10ft, I have them placed either side of a piano on one of the short lengths if the room...it sounds like I might need to reposition?

Edited by TonyRPH on Monday 6th May 17:23

[TonyRPH]

Itsallicanafford said:

TonyRPH said:

On the amplifier, the speaker terminals are labeled (+) and (-), and like wise on the speakers.

The terminals are also colour coded RED (+) and BLACK (-).

You need to ensure that the cables go to the corresponding terminals - e.g. (+) on amplifier must go to (+) on speaker.

Some cable has marking to identify polarity - it may not be marked (+) or (-) but may simply have a stripe or writing on one side only.

If you're lucky, the cable may even be colour coded, which makes it a lot easier to check!

Another way to check is to use a 1.5V battery - but that involves unplugging cables etc., so may be too much of a "faff".

ETA: According to the spec on the Epos website, the M12.2 go down to 54Hz, which although not going to give floor shaking bass, should still sound pretty reasonable, a medium sized (12ft x 15ft x 9ft) room.

I suspect that either your speakers are out of phase, or you have some kind of room resonance which is cancelling out the bass.

For example - I used to have a pair of Dynaudio 52's (similar sized to the Epos you have), and if I placed them either side of the chimney breast, facing across the room - the bass was appalling. But facing down the length of the room, they would "kick ass" bass wise, for such a small speaker.

Can you give more detail of your room? Size and speaker placement would help.

Itsallicanafford said:

Thanks for the response, I will check the phasing...the room is approx 20x 10ft, I have them placed either side of a piano on one of the short lengths if the room...it sounds like I might need to reposition?

Edited by TonyRPH on Monday 6th May 17:23

I would certainly try them facing down the longer length of the room. Also be sure to have good sturdy stands - you haven't given much detail on those, but something like the Partington Dreadnought or Soundstyle Z1 are recommended at the very least.

Despite the huge price difference in the above stands - I can recommend the Soundstyle Z1's - they are sturdy and excellent value.

Also - putting the speakers on either side of a piano is probably not helping - you want no more than about 8 - 10 feet between the speakers.

A quick way to check the phasing based on listening alone - switch off the amp and on one speaker only - simply swap the plugs around - then listen again, and see if the bass gets better or worse.

[Crackie]

Itsallicanafford said:

Many thanks for the response, they are on epos open frame stands and positioned 50cm from the wall. I certainly don't know how to check if they are in phase, can you elaborate? The bass guitar/ drum is very light, not sure what music you listen to but play Radiohead airbag, there is none of the bass guitar on the track, very strange...I reset the amp to its factory defaults but that didn't help..

Once you've checked that both speakers are in phase; check that the Epos stands you already have are level and as stable as possible; any instability at the floor or speaker interface will compromise bass. The drive unit screws may not be fully tight anymore; check that all the driver screws ( and terminal tray screws )are tight.
Regarding positioning; 50cm from the rear wall may be too far; moving the speakers closer to the rear wall should give significantly more (+3db) bass. You would need bi-amp the bass drivers on your speakers with a NAP300 power amp to achieve a similar 3db SPL increase.
The bass driver on the Epos M12.2s is driven full range ( no crossover components in circuit ); this means the driver is connected directly to the amps output stage. The driver has to have been well engineered to give a smooth roll off at the top end but the benefit is better driver control and damping which is close to an active speakers'. Bass quality should be very good when the speakers are clear of boundaries; moving them closer to walls will give more bass but the quality of the bass may not be as good.

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 7th May 21:29

[Itsallicanafford]

Thanks for all the responses, I do like the idea of keeping the Epos's if I can and work around the issue. I will look into getting the Soundstyle stands and repositioning in the room, then checking the phase of the speakers. Will let you know how all these goes...many thanks again

[Globs]

Check the phase first.

[Itsallicanafford]

Dear all,

Quick update on this, I purchased the soundstyle Z1 stands and unwired all the components of my Hi-Fi.

Firstly, I positioned the speakers about 200cm apart and about 15cm from the back wall. I then rewired all the components and the speakers. The speaker wires have naim speaker plugs so connecting into the preamp is difficult to get wrong and the back of the Epos speakers have massive '+' and '-' signs so again it would be difficult for me to mess up (although not impossible!)....

The result....a massive improvement, even at low volumes the bass is 100% improved, detail is clearer and the system is really singing...I think it must have been the lightweight Epos open frame type speaker stand and positioning which was the problem.

thanks so much for all your advice on this, much appreciated...going to leave the system alone now and concentrate on listening to it as much as possible....

[Crackie]

Nice one