Grey Imports-Am I missing something?
Discussion
Hi all,
Considering buying a new Canon 6d after my 1ds has reached a bit of an age with shutter problem etc.
Obviously there is a decent gap in prices between 'grey' imports of 6d's (and most new cameras) and 'official' UK stock that I understand Canon will not cover by warranty.
Am I missing something here, but I am not buying a camera from Canon, but from a UK company who offer the usual warranty and would/should be covered by the sales of goods act etc?
So I can't see how the Canon 'not covering it' angle would work, as it would be the problem of the retailer anyway? Just the same as buying it from say Tesco or whoever.
If I am being silly, please say!
Basically, if I buy from 'Cheap Camera Warehouse Ltd' based in the UK, and not import the camera myself from say Hong Kong, then I'm getting the best of both worlds? A normal warranty (as above) and a much cheaper price?
Discuss!
Considering buying a new Canon 6d after my 1ds has reached a bit of an age with shutter problem etc.
Obviously there is a decent gap in prices between 'grey' imports of 6d's (and most new cameras) and 'official' UK stock that I understand Canon will not cover by warranty.
Am I missing something here, but I am not buying a camera from Canon, but from a UK company who offer the usual warranty and would/should be covered by the sales of goods act etc?
So I can't see how the Canon 'not covering it' angle would work, as it would be the problem of the retailer anyway? Just the same as buying it from say Tesco or whoever.
If I am being silly, please say!
Basically, if I buy from 'Cheap Camera Warehouse Ltd' based in the UK, and not import the camera myself from say Hong Kong, then I'm getting the best of both worlds? A normal warranty (as above) and a much cheaper price?
Discuss!
As the OP says - Canon's warranties are generally regional, ie they won't honour a US or AP warranty in EU - so no if you buy a camera on holiday in the US or Hong Kong and it craps out when you get it home, then tough. They do this so that they can charge different prices for identical products in different markets. You can buy the camera with an international warranty rather than a regional one for people who need that flexibility, but the price will be the same as in the most expensive market - otherwise everyone would buy their cameras mail order with the international warranty from Hong Kong..
Regarding the Grey import with retailer's own warranty, the downsides over buying a UK market camera with a EU warranty as I see it are:
- A grey import will have less resale value than a home market one
- "Cheap Camera Warehouse" may not be able to carry out any warranty work as quickly or to the same standard as Canon.
- "Cheap Camera Warehouse" may go bust and not be able to honour the warranty, in which case you may have some protection under Consumer Credit Act if you pay on credit card, but it'll still be a hassle even if you're not ultimately out of pocket.
I bought my S100 as a grey import with a retailer warranty and wouldn't hesitate to do so again at that price point. At the 6D price point, I'd have a good think about whether the risks outweighed the savings.
Regarding the Grey import with retailer's own warranty, the downsides over buying a UK market camera with a EU warranty as I see it are:
- A grey import will have less resale value than a home market one
- "Cheap Camera Warehouse" may not be able to carry out any warranty work as quickly or to the same standard as Canon.
- "Cheap Camera Warehouse" may go bust and not be able to honour the warranty, in which case you may have some protection under Consumer Credit Act if you pay on credit card, but it'll still be a hassle even if you're not ultimately out of pocket.
I bought my S100 as a grey import with a retailer warranty and wouldn't hesitate to do so again at that price point. At the 6D price point, I'd have a good think about whether the risks outweighed the savings.
Edited by Seight_Returns on Monday 13th May 15:16
Speed addicted said:
I also don't understand what would happen if I bought gear on holiday then took it home, does the warranty only cover you on the country you buy the goods?
Surely all the warranties are worldwide?
I don't know how best to answer that but if you bought a camera on holiday in Australia at 'Smiths Cameras' then you would have to return the camera to them, not handy if you live in SSurely all the warranties are worldwide?
horpe for example.What I'm asking is if I buy a camera from a company in this country, then the sale of goods act covers me-so long as the business still trades of course, regardless of Canon viewing it as a 'grey' import or otherwise.
Wherever I buy a Canon camera from, either it is from Argos or somewhere else, then the camera has been imported at some stage. I'm not on about me buying it from Hong Kong, but from a retailer. I don't care where they import it from.
One thing I've found out after posting earlier is the VAT situation seems to be actually included in the price on the site I looked at-it states it is, but either that is because they don't charge it, as not registered to charge VAT as not registered as a UK company, or otherwise, so that slightly skews the price anyway, making it already better by 20%.
Basically, a camera retailing with no VAT at £1100.00 would be £1320.00 at a 'normal' such as Argos (for example) thus that might well be where the saving is made.
Of course if I buy from Argos at £1320.00 then I can claim the VAT back, therefore ending up with a 'UK' camera at £1100.00 in 3 months or so. That is assuming I am VAT registered of course.
So if I'm VAT registered (I am) then there is not as big an incentive to buy from 'Cheap Camera Warehouse' if they are not charging VAT.
It makes more sense if you are a typical customer who cannot claim VAT back.
I do agree with earlier post about the basic theory v practice of if it goes wrong, even considering supply of goods act (if applicable) but looking today I can buy a 6d 'officially' at £1,600.00 or 'grey' for £1,200.00 or thereabouts. Even cheaper if they don't come with WiFi and GPS (£1,100.00). With a 1 year warranty too. Can get 3 year warranties too at some places.
It makes more sense if you are a typical customer who cannot claim VAT back.
I do agree with earlier post about the basic theory v practice of if it goes wrong, even considering supply of goods act (if applicable) but looking today I can buy a 6d 'officially' at £1,600.00 or 'grey' for £1,200.00 or thereabouts. Even cheaper if they don't come with WiFi and GPS (£1,100.00). With a 1 year warranty too. Can get 3 year warranties too at some places.
How can they be selling the cameras without VAT ?
The compulsory VAT registration threshold is a turnover is what, £50k ish ? That makes them a pretty small scale operation, shifting less than 50 £1000 cameras a year. Even with an optimistic mark up of 30% that doesn't even generate enough cash to pay the wages of 1 admin person let alone other overheads. I'd question whether an operation of this scale would be able to provide a worthwhile warranty.
And even then how are they getting their stock into the UK without paying VAT at point of import, such that they can sell them on for £1100 and still make it worth their while ?
Doesn't seem to add up.
And it they're no a UK company and are operating outsdide the UK, the Sale of Goods Act isn't going to be much help.
The compulsory VAT registration threshold is a turnover is what, £50k ish ? That makes them a pretty small scale operation, shifting less than 50 £1000 cameras a year. Even with an optimistic mark up of 30% that doesn't even generate enough cash to pay the wages of 1 admin person let alone other overheads. I'd question whether an operation of this scale would be able to provide a worthwhile warranty.
And even then how are they getting their stock into the UK without paying VAT at point of import, such that they can sell them on for £1100 and still make it worth their while ?
Doesn't seem to add up.
And it they're no a UK company and are operating outsdide the UK, the Sale of Goods Act isn't going to be much help.
Edited by Seight_Returns on Monday 13th May 16:20
Seight_Returns said:
How can they be selling the cameras without VAT ?
The compulsory VAT registration threshold is a turnover is what, £50k ish ? That makes them a pretty small scale operation, shifting less than 50 £1000 cameras a year. Even with an optimistic mark up of 30% that doesn't even generate enough cash to pay the wages of 1 admin person let alone other overheads. I'd question whether an operation of this scale would be able to provide a worthwhile warranty.
And even then how are they getting their stock into the UK without paying VAT at point of import, such that they can sell them on for £1100 and still make it worth their while ?
Doesn't seem to add up.
And it they're no a UK company and are operating outsdide the UK, the Sale of Goods Act isn't going to be much help.
You've answered your own question possibly?The compulsory VAT registration threshold is a turnover is what, £50k ish ? That makes them a pretty small scale operation, shifting less than 50 £1000 cameras a year. Even with an optimistic mark up of 30% that doesn't even generate enough cash to pay the wages of 1 admin person let alone other overheads. I'd question whether an operation of this scale would be able to provide a worthwhile warranty.
And even then how are they getting their stock into the UK without paying VAT at point of import, such that they can sell them on for £1100 and still make it worth their while ?
Doesn't seem to add up.
And it they're no a UK company and are operating outsdide the UK, the Sale of Goods Act isn't going to be much help.
Edited by Seight_Returns on Monday 13th May 16:20
I don't know about the VAT, but they are a well-established company and I quote when I proceed to checkout "NO TAXES TO PAY".
So a camera retailing new at £1059.00 is circa £850.00 plus VAT at 20%, which makes your figure of £1059.00 with no taxes to pay....
Or it is £1059.00 and they are not charging VAT....to keep the price 'low'...which is a bit, er, illegal if they should be VAT registered because of turnover...
Or it is £1059.00 and they are registered abroad....so no need to charge VAT...
Or they, quite simply, are bent?
I can't find any mention of VAT anywhere, which is not a crime if not charging it in the first place...
Of course another option might be the price is £1059.00 and YOU pay the import duty when Mr Taxman catches up with you!
Either way, to undercut 'official' sellers there has to be something missed off/out.
Perceived lack of warranty with it being a grey import is only half the story.
Or the 'official' supply of cameras is price-fixed of course?
Or everyone, weather grey or official can buy them in at circa £650.00 plus VAT and the official guys, with more overheads etc, need to shift them at a higher price. If they 'fix' the price they have more control of the market. And moan about 'grey' imports etc, which we seem to have swallowed up.
Food for thought...
Either way, to undercut 'official' sellers there has to be something missed off/out.
Perceived lack of warranty with it being a grey import is only half the story.
Or the 'official' supply of cameras is price-fixed of course?
Or everyone, weather grey or official can buy them in at circa £650.00 plus VAT and the official guys, with more overheads etc, need to shift them at a higher price. If they 'fix' the price they have more control of the market. And moan about 'grey' imports etc, which we seem to have swallowed up.
Food for thought...
I was about to post that. I suspect that they're shipping the camera directly to you from HK or somewhere - and in the reasonably unlikely event that you get stung for VAT/Import Duty at point of entry then they'll reimburse you.
Suspect they'll describe the item on the customs declaration in a way that makes any VAT/Import Tax quite unlikely. I believe that's the way it works with DigitalRev and maybe others.
I can't think of any other way that they would be able to sell you the goods VAT free.
If that's how it works it wouldn't necessarily put me off.
Suspect they'll describe the item on the customs declaration in a way that makes any VAT/Import Tax quite unlikely. I believe that's the way it works with DigitalRev and maybe others.
I can't think of any other way that they would be able to sell you the goods VAT free.
If that's how it works it wouldn't necessarily put me off.
Seight_Returns said:
I was about to post that. I suspect that they're shipping the camera directly to you from HK or somewhere - and in the reasonably unlikely event that you get stung for VAT/Import Duty at point of entry then they'll reimburse you.
Suspect they'll describe the item on the customs declaration in a way that makes any VAT/Import Tax quite unlikely. I believe that's the way it works with DigitalRev and maybe others.
I can't think of any other way that they would be able to sell you the goods VAT free.
If that's how it works it wouldn't necessarily put me off.
That's how it normally works as far as I'm aware, even if the company has a UK address this will normally just be the office/warehouse of a handling agent. The company that was popular recently shipped the goods from HK marked as 'toy parts' and such things, with a minimal value attached to them, hence flying into the UK undetected by HMRC. Suspect they'll describe the item on the customs declaration in a way that makes any VAT/Import Tax quite unlikely. I believe that's the way it works with DigitalRev and maybe others.
I can't think of any other way that they would be able to sell you the goods VAT free.
If that's how it works it wouldn't necessarily put me off.
The easy way to check is to email the company and ask if their items are valid for cashback promotions, or ask for a VAT receipt, if they aren't valid and can't supply a VAT receipt, they're 99.99999% certain to be grey, but generally if a website is selling everything at roughly 20% less than normal UK prices, and claims that no taxes will need to be paid, they are shipping them into the UK under the radar. The interesting thing at this point is that the importer (i.e. me or you) is the one ultimately responsible, so however unlikely it may be, if the brown stuff hits the fan it's your problem.
There are almost never 'no taxes to pay' if things are done legally, even if you return from the US (for example) with a new 6D you should be paying up a not inconsiderable sum to the taxman at the UK point of entry.
There are a few popular grey camera importers doing the rounds at the moment that supply no obvious address, it amazes me how many people happily ignore the fundamental safety checks, even more amazing if they decide to get a few percent further off by paying through BACs!
Edited by ukaskew on Monday 13th May 18:52
Into the mix.
I'm also VAT registered, but am on fixed, which saves me lots of cash per year... But it means that I only get full VAT back on purchases over £2k. (Don't ask me to explain this, I have a life...ask an accountant)
But it does mean that buying from HK is an option... Which I do from time to time. Did last month. Saved +/- 20%
Generally buy from UK if it's a high value item though.
I'm also VAT registered, but am on fixed, which saves me lots of cash per year... But it means that I only get full VAT back on purchases over £2k. (Don't ask me to explain this, I have a life...ask an accountant)
But it does mean that buying from HK is an option... Which I do from time to time. Did last month. Saved +/- 20%
Generally buy from UK if it's a high value item though.
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