Vixen Starting Problem

[pridaux]

Hi Guys
Wonder if you can be of help as I have tried everything that I can think of when I start the car I found the starter motor was a little clunky but I thought that was just normal for an inertia starter motor.
However yesterday after a nice run I parked up outside the garage and did a few jobs that I wanted to do however when I went to start her all I got was a wheering sound from the starter motor but the gears/cogs where not connecting.
I tried a jump lead thinking that it may be low power but no joy so I bump started the car and she started fine so I put her in the Garage and took out the starter motor and it looked rather worn and sloppy on the inertia shaft.
I gave it a clean up with a paint brush and petrol and re fitted but still the same.
So I picked up a new starter motor re built one nice quality re build from my local auto shop and I fitted that and still the same.
My next thought was that there was not enough power to give the motor enough kick to put it into gear so I checked the amount of power there by turning on the lights and trying to start her as I presumed if it was lack of power then the light would dim but they did not so there was plenty of power.
my next elimination was the starter solenoid so I tried starting her by putting a screwdriver across the wires out of the solenoid and still the same the motor starts but does not engage with the gearing.
all the internals are new and on inspection look fine so I am running out of ideas hence this post any advice would be appreciated

Old Motor looked rather worn


internals all look great


Help Needed Please as I have run out of ideas
Andrew

[kabaman]

Sounds interesting, things you could try:
1) Operating the starter from the same connections but outside of the bellhousing so that you can be sure that the drive cog is being flung out correctly. This will take some careful work with some rope or similar to keep the whole body still. Be very careful if you do this! And you will need a seperate earth for the starer body.
2) If it's behaving, then it can only be some dimension problem I would have thought. What about, somehow taping the drive cog in the right place and covering with plastecine and inserting and removing. That might tell you something about the mating of it all.
3) There were three and two bolt starters and bellhousings I seem to remember, and if I remember the lotus (Ford) twin cam had one less tooth on the starter gear. Maybe there's some sort of error there?

Not sure if any of that helps.

Neil

[pridaux]

Hi Niel
I did test the old one on the bench and it was Fine its been on her a long time.
The new one is the same 3 bolt 10 cog so that's ok will try the blue tack idea
I wonder if fitting a high torque starter motor may be the answer as then the cogs are directly on the flywheel does anyone have any experience of which one is a direct fit to match this ie 10 cog 3 bolt and the matching number of teeth on the flywheel.
All seems rather strange as everything is nearly new on the engine and it has been starting fine since re build in 2010 apart from the starter motor which is now new as well.
I wonder if I should have cleaned the new one with de greaser before fitting as there was probably some protective oil on the inertia shaft and spring so will remove and try that as well.
Heading away with work till Saturday so wont be able to try out till then
Andrew

Edited by pridaux on Tuesday 14th May 06:02

Edited by pridaux on Tuesday 14th May 06:27

[phillpot]

Thorough check of all electrical connections (and don't forget engine earth strap) would be my next move.

[dryden]

Check your engine earth.

[Astacus]

Yep, sounds like it could be insufficient " oomph" due to low current

[ausi steve]

As an ex Lucas auto-electrician, may I suggest that you wash the armature/drive cog in petrol making sure that it is totally clean and free to rotate out on the spline. Do not lubricate it with a oil based wet lubricant as it attracts and holds clutch dust. We always lubricated the splines with graphite powder or if this is not available just leave it dry, it wont hurt
These starters should have enough torque as they were used on engines from 850cc up to at least 3000cc without trouble.

[nwarner]

It could be me but your picture of the ring gear looks like it is not on the edge of the fly wheel. It hasn't come off has it?

Nige

[phillpot]

nwarner said:

It could be me but your picture of the ring gear looks like it is not on the edge of the fly wheel. It hasn't come off has it?

Nige

Not just me then, I thought something looked a bit odd there Can't see how the pinion engages with the ring gear with whatever that is behind the ring gear?

The more I look the more that looks wrong, ring gear seems to be taking a different arc to everything else?

Edited by phillpot on Tuesday 14th May 11:56

[nwarner]

phillpot said:

Not just me then, I thought something looked a bit odd there Can't see how the pinion engages with the ring gear with whatever that is behind the ring gear?

The more I look the more that looks wrong, ring gear seems to be taking a different arc to everything else?

Edited by phillpot on Tuesday 14th May 11:56

My exact thoughts

[Adrian@]

I did speak to Andrew earlier and said he needed a guy with the same combination of engine/gearbox for a look/see ...it is a 5 min job to remove the starter, because I agree, it does not look right, I would expect that ring gear to be on the edge of that flywheel.
Adrian@
9999999% ring gear slipped off and trapped up there some how ..that ring gear should be within a couple of MM of the centre line of that hole.
AND that intermediate plate has/is been missing, eaten away,or whatever and is canting the starter over. (OK maybe)

Edited by Adrian@ on Tuesday 14th May 13:17

[Astacus]

Adrian@ said:

I did speak to Andrew earlier and said he needed a guy with the same combination of engine/gearbox for a look/see ...it is a 5 min job to remove the starter, because I agree, it does not look right, I would expect that ring gear to be on the edge of that flywheel.
Adrian@
9999999% ring gear slipped off and trapped up there some how ..that ring gear should be within a couple of MM of the centre line of that hole.

Edited by Adrian@ on Tuesday 14th May 13:14

Now you mention it........, it really does look like its slipped off

[tomtrout]

If the ring gear has slipped off (it does look p*ssed) I'm staggered it didn't make a loud clattering noise when the engine was run via the bump start. I guess it could be partially on but you would have thought that even this would make the engine vibrate. If you whipped the plugs out and got somebody to crank the engine over via a bar on the crankshaft pulley you would soon see if the ring was wonky.

[heightswitch]

Mazda MX5 1800. Starts first time.

[pridaux]

heightswitch said:

Mazda MX5 1800. Starts first time.

Hi Neil
That's an idea all your mates seem obsessed with MX5s are you hanging around with too many hair dressers I wont tell anyone
Andrew

[pridaux]

Well the problem is diagnosed yes the cog ring is hanging there like a coat hanger looking like new not a scratch on it or even slightly worn.
The inertia starter must have been slowly knocking it bit by bit until it came off so have a few days off next week and will drop the gearbox and have it re fitted this time so it wont come off she will make Spa and Zolder as planned although the 3000s is still a back up plan once the re cored Rad is ready Friday.
Had the Evans prep fluid in on Saturday for the run to Belgium and back and then drained out and took the rad to Radtec in our village for re core ready for the Evans to go in.
Thanks everyone for your advice and help stupidly I had not even thought to check if it was lose popped home tonight instead of staying in London as I knew if that was the problem I would need to arrange for some help with the Job so all arranged for Tuesday.
The Flywheel ring has 110 teeth and the starter is 10 I presume that is correct as if it was wrong the ring would be damaged please advise
Andrew
Ps Happy Now Problem solved

Edited by pridaux on Tuesday 14th May 20:40

[tomtrout]

I don't want to be the harbinger of doom but I think I would want to know why it has come off before replacing the same ring on the same flywheel. Not a 10 minute minute job! I was wondering, given the cars competition pedigree, if the flywheel has been modified and whether this might have contributed towards your problem?

[the other tim]

If you used a pre-engaged type starter it would'nt try to push the gear off, otherwise 3 beads of tig should sort it but may need to rebalance the flywheel.

Edited by the other tim on Wednesday 15th May 16:42

[heightswitch]

In my experience they generally come off because they have a hairline crack in them due to fatigue!!

N.

[pridaux]

heightswitch said:

In my experience they generally come off because they have a hairline crack in them due to fatigue!!

N.

Thanks Neil

That is what Alan has said as well who built the engine as i have regular chats with him from before i even bought the car he has been great and i hope he will soon come down and stay and have a few days away with the car and rekindle his memories of the old girl.

Also a big thanks to all who have e mailed me and called with helpful suggestions as they are all appreciated and really makes me realise the guardianship of these cars is far more than just the car itself but the community and friendships that go along side it.

I have a new ring gear in the car which i picked up at Burtons today ready for tuesday and the welding company up the road say they will heat it up and drop it on whenever i pop up and will also put some tacks on so it wont happen again.
Ideally if i had more time i would take and get an engineer to drill tap and screw with allen grommets in a number of places however some neat even runs of weld should work a treat.

The Old starter motor was very sloppy compared with the new one and i suspect was hitting it a fraction off when engaged which over time and the probable fracture will have slowly caused her to pop off.

It will be a real challenge to do this however when i hit something like this i give my local mobile garage a call and get some help so monday i will strip down to a point where i am happy and drain off fluids etc as there is a hydraulic clutch as well to deal with ready for us both to drop the gearbox tuesday and take the flywheel up to sort.
Yes she has been lightened when done but it is still the standard 110 teeth ring gear even though there is the 5 speed gear box.
There are two types available so be careful if you order one on line as there is the inertia starter type and the fixed starter type although i am sure someone will pop up saying there are more?.

So yes a bit of a pain so early in having her however one of the joys of classic car ownership is the learning process.

Will keep you posted

Andrew

PS Problems are just situations to help you learn more by solving them thanks Guys.