For M owners - steering question

[jastx]

I currently own my 3rd '70s 2500M and previously owned a '67 Tuscan v8. I have mentioned this before but the steering on my M cars was/is considerably slower than it was on the Tuscan.

My first two M's back in the 70's were my only cars so I got used to the slow steering. My current M is not my daily driver. I'm finally getting it on the road now and in transitioning from my other cars -- a sport sedan and a minivan -- the slow steering is so obvious it feels bad. It makes the M feel not like a sports car, not nimble. It's most noticeable in the neighborhood with its 90 degree turns.

Adrian has provided a solution -- a different pinion gear -- but I haven't installed it yet due to time, hassle and the fear that after all that work the steering will be terribly heavy. The tires on my car aren't the stock 185 R14s but 215/60 R14 in front and 225/60 R14 rear (that way when purchased). I can change the tires but they're like new and 185 R14s are impossible to find or very expensive from reproduction vendors like Coker tire (I'd rather spend on new shocks and springs first).

I know many of you drive, race and enjoy your M cars. Do you feel the steering is slow? Has anyone done anything about it who can offer a comparison with a quicker rack? I would appreciate any experience or advice on this from other M owners.

Thanks!

John

[dryden]

I cannot speak for the 2500 as I have never driven one...........or a Tuscan V8 ether!...........But I had a Vixen, and now a Taimar. I know what you mean! It is the price we pay for no kick back!
However, my Taimar had been standing around when I first got it and was stiff and dead feeling through the wheel, but, after a set of Adrian@s alloy rack mounts, and lubricating all the joints, and driving it every day has transformed it!
I am running 185X14 Khumos on standard T slots, at £60 each

[Tim C]

I changed the pinion on my '72 2500M and was pleased with the results. It did make the steering heavier but this was only noticeable during parking. I was only running 185 tyres on the Tuscan/Vixen/early M 15 wheels though. To be fair, it's a very straight forward swap if it isn't to your liking.
This is all past tense as my car is waiting patiently for it's body off restoration!

Tim.

[bluezeeland]

Hi John,

My former 3000S had stock a rack and 205/15 tyres, and was indeed steering as you describe. My now 3000S has had a complete overhaul of the suspension, including the rack + alloy mounts + low droop track rod ends, also the ARB has been refurbed + new drop links. Finally and imo more importantyly I run 185/14 tyres (as per original), yes they are expensive (Michelin) but it does transform the car !

I would go down the list, clean and refurb rack, get alloy mounts and low droops, and see what you find, as obviously the tyres are the most expensive..........

Kindly report progress/outcome

rgds

Frank

[Cerberus90]

bluezeeland said:

Hi John,

My former 3000S had stock a rack and 205/15 tyres, and was indeed steering as you describe. My now 3000S has had a complete overhaul of the suspension, including the rack + alloy mounts + low droop track rod ends, also the ARB has been refurbed + new drop links. Finally and imo more importantyly I run 185/14 tyres (as per original), yes they are expensive (Michelin) but it does transform the car !

I would go down the list, clean and refurb rack, get alloy mounts and low droops, and see what you find, as obviously the tyres are the most expensive..........

Kindly report progress/outcome

rgds

Frank

Which tyres and where do you get them from?

We're still trying to decide what to do about tyres on the Taimar.

[Erich Stahler]

You huys that have fitted new racks/pinions do you mean just rebuilt or 'quick' racks?

[bluezeeland]

will get back on the tyre specs (tonight)

as for the rack; refurbed, have no experiences with quick-racks, alltho seem to have read comments advising against quick-racks........

@OP; forgot to mention the pivot-points of the uprights are worth a poke around too, just to check if all is OK

[bluezeeland]

tyres; Michelin MXV-P 185HR14 at Longstones (set of 4, just shy of 1K........)

grtz

Frank

[Cerberus90]

Bloody hell, .

Think we'll be going for something cheaper, , if we can find some.

[Adrian@]

I see that that MXV-P 185HR14 is a 90 profile tyre ...my thoughts were that OE was a 80 profile, someone with clean hands have a look-see.
Adrian@

[bluezeeland]

I was led to believe they are 82' ( i think.......) which is what i needed for the MOT dictators here

@ adrian@; gotten my mail re the inline fan ?

grtz

Frank

[dryden]

bluezeeland said:

tyres; Michelin MXV-P 185HR14 at Longstones (set of 4, just shy of 1K........)

grtz

Frank

Er, Why ?

With 185X80X14 Khumos at £60 each, or Fuldas at not much more..........

[bluezeeland]

Well, cos, our belgian MOT is extremely difficult over tyres

getting the right size is not a problem, speed and load-index are, (should be 91H) which is what makes it expensive too

then again if you find 185/80HR14 - 91, kindly let me know !

F

[TaimarTurbo]

How about these?
http://www.reifen24.de/PKW-SUV-4x4/VREDESTEIN-SPRI...
H speed rating, but loadindex is 90, slightly less than the 91 you need, but 600kg per wheel look plenty for a light TVR.

[bluezeeland]

Hi Fred,

Txs for that, have been told the vredesteins are s**t by a luxemburger friend

wanted to get Fulda', couldn't, only on special (expensive) request, dunno bout Kumho...

[dryden]

Funny thing, memory,...it deceives! My Khumos are 195X70R14 91H, It was my old Firestones that were 185X80! However, very good tyre, and 91H............and £60, and it steers nicely

[TaimarTurbo]

Plenty to choose from in 195/70-14 91H

Also Fuldas:
http://www.reifen24.de/PKW-SUV-4x4/FULDA-CARAT-ASS...
Even in V speed rating:
http://www.reifen24.de/PKW-SUV-4x4/FULDA-CARAT-ASS...

See here for the complete list
https://www.reifen24.de/tyre_search_result.php?cat...


Fred

Edited by TaimarTurbo on Thursday 16th May 21:24

[madsvlund]

Hi

In my opinion are there several reasons for the heavy and slow steering on the M's. Main one is due to the large positive scrub radius (center of vertical steering axis to the center of the wheels contact area). This makes it heavyer compared to more modern cars, which have a slight negative scrub (steering center is outside of wheel center). Further is the steering arms quite long (6") and teh angles on the steering arms is not ideal either (due to the steering rack beeing mounted to high, for no obvious reason)



My solution was to change all of it....

[GTRene]

it also looks like a complete different steering rack...

would those steering racks of say bmw E36 and or Z3 fit?

[madsvlund]

Allmost, E46 std rack. Z3 is quick ratio, same dimensions. I'll try with the std rack first and swap to quick ratio if needed. Uprights are allso E46, and home made A arms