How often do you Heel &Toe?
Poll: How often do you Heel &Toe?
Total Members Polled: 165
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
DMC2 said:
Only when racing. Bit silly doing it on the road.
So what advantage do you gain when racing, compared with on the road?The reason this is necesarry when racing is that you want to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible.
On the road however, there is no need* to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible and so you can rev match without having to brake at the same time.
(* in fact, it'd be quite dangerous to always drive like this as other road users probably won't be expecting it)
I h'n't when on a spirited drive but I rarely find the need when I'm driving to the shops (and find that I can rev match quite easily without needing h'n't).
I voted pdk, I love mine!
It even does down blips when in sport or sport plus, so no need to heel and toe.
On our last track day outing at Silverstone I did sometimes use left foot braking though, it seemed to work better for getting a good balance on some of the corners.
I still love the 6 speed manual in my Caterham R500, but as a GT car car I think the PDK in my 997.2 is the best setup for the car!
It even does down blips when in sport or sport plus, so no need to heel and toe.
On our last track day outing at Silverstone I did sometimes use left foot braking though, it seemed to work better for getting a good balance on some of the corners.
I still love the 6 speed manual in my Caterham R500, but as a GT car car I think the PDK in my 997.2 is the best setup for the car!
monthefish said:
REALIST123 said:
DMC2 said:
Only when racing. Bit silly doing it on the road.
So what advantage do you gain when racing, compared with on the road?The reason this is necesarry when racing is that you want to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible.
On the road however, there is no need* to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible and so you can rev match without having to brake at the same time.
(* in fact, it'd be quite dangerous to always drive like this as other road users probably won't be expecting it)
I h'n't when on a spirited drive but I rarely find the need when I'm driving to the shops (and find that I can rev match quite easily without needing h'n't).
It's mechanical sympathy 1st and foremost. Agree you don't have to be braking to rev match though why would you pick a lower gear without braking?
monthefish said:
REALIST123 said:
DMC2 said:
Only when racing. Bit silly doing it on the road.
So what advantage do you gain when racing, compared with on the road?The reason this is necesarry when racing is that you want to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible.
On the road however, there is no need* to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible and so you can rev match without having to brake at the same time.
(* in fact, it'd be quite dangerous to always drive like this as other road users probably won't be expecting it)
I h'n't when on a spirited drive but I rarely find the need when I'm driving to the shops (and find that I can rev match quite easily without needing h'n't).
I struggle to understand why it is 'necessary' when racing just because you are braking as hard as possible. It could be just as effective to brake hard and then select the correct gear once the lower speed has been reached.
I am well aware that H & T is essential with a proper racing car's box, but this is to release the dog rings and enable a change rather than 'rev match'.
If you wait to finish braking before changing gear when racing - you will be giving away 10ths of a second to the competition on each corner - hence losing the race.
If you change down without h'n't when braking at the limit it is likely to lock at least one of the driven wheels when you release the clutch causing a potential spin scenario.
So for racing it is an essential skill.
If you change down without h'n't when braking at the limit it is likely to lock at least one of the driven wheels when you release the clutch causing a potential spin scenario.
So for racing it is an essential skill.
REALIST123 said:
Your last sentence says it all. It is a useful practice at times on the road.I agree that it certainly isn't necessary all the time and with your reference to other road users.
I struggle to understand why it is 'necessary' when racing just because you are braking as hard as possible. It could be just as effective to brake hard and then select the correct gear once the lower speed has been reached.
I am well aware that H & T is essential with a proper racing car's box, but this is to release the dog rings and enable a change rather than 'rev match'.
Even if you do all your braking before changing gear (IAM anyone? I struggle to understand why it is 'necessary' when racing just because you are braking as hard as possible. It could be just as effective to brake hard and then select the correct gear once the lower speed has been reached.
I am well aware that H & T is essential with a proper racing car's box, but this is to release the dog rings and enable a change rather than 'rev match'.
) by definition the engine speed will be mis-matched to the gear you're going to select so increasing the engine speed to match still adds mechanical sympathy - this is always a benefit in any car and any conditions (interesting that Porsche have deliberately engineered a way to be particularly unsympathetic into the new GT3 though - the clutch kick feature).There was a recent thread on this whole heel & toe subject with lots of debate - it might be better for someone to find that than for this to become a repeat exercise.
Oh, and to the poster that left foot braked in his Cayman - if it's working for you that's fine but there's no benefit in that car because the brake pedal (when pressed second) cuts the throttle electronically. Being able to left foot brake is a significant reason that I prefer the early Boxster that I race (with cable throttle and no cut-off) to the later one that the team also run.
Interesting poll - I thought of doing similar but worried that cmoose would blow a head gasket.
The question being asked was whether people (meaning, in this forum, Porsche owners) who deliberately buy manual cars do so in order to h&t all/any/much of the time - in my view, few people are "on it" sufficiently often to need to H&T much, if ever. I can, of course, be wrong.
It will be interesting to see how the poll develops, although I suppose there is a natural bias on here to "enthusiastic" driving which may skew the results more towards H&T than the average Porsche buyer, even those who opt for manual cars.
The question being asked was whether people (meaning, in this forum, Porsche owners) who deliberately buy manual cars do so in order to h&t all/any/much of the time - in my view, few people are "on it" sufficiently often to need to H&T much, if ever. I can, of course, be wrong.
It will be interesting to see how the poll develops, although I suppose there is a natural bias on here to "enthusiastic" driving which may skew the results more towards H&T than the average Porsche buyer, even those who opt for manual cars.
will_ said:
Interesting poll - I thought of doing similar but worried that cmoose would blow a head gasket.
The question being asked was whether people (meaning, in this forum, Porsche owners) who deliberately buy manual cars do so in order to h&t all/any/much of the time - in my view, few people are "on it" sufficiently often to need to H&T much, if ever. I can, of course, be wrong.
It will be interesting to see how the poll develops, although I suppose there is a natural bias on here to "enthusiastic" driving which may skew the results more towards H&T than the average Porsche buyer, even those who opt for manual cars.
It's not interesting; it's frigging tedious! These debates arise every bloody month.The question being asked was whether people (meaning, in this forum, Porsche owners) who deliberately buy manual cars do so in order to h&t all/any/much of the time - in my view, few people are "on it" sufficiently often to need to H&T much, if ever. I can, of course, be wrong.
It will be interesting to see how the poll develops, although I suppose there is a natural bias on here to "enthusiastic" driving which may skew the results more towards H&T than the average Porsche buyer, even those who opt for manual cars.
I H&T all the time. I do it because it makes my driving smoother, which is a constant that should apply whether I'm taking granny to the shops or braking hard into Adenau Forrest.
Now please, let's just end it there.
OlberJ said:
monthefish said:
REALIST123 said:
DMC2 said:
Only when racing. Bit silly doing it on the road.
So what advantage do you gain when racing, compared with on the road?The reason this is necesarry when racing is that you want to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible.
On the road however, there is no need* to brake as late as possible/as hard as possible and so you can rev match without having to brake at the same time.
(* in fact, it'd be quite dangerous to always drive like this as other road users probably won't be expecting it)
I h'n't when on a spirited drive but I rarely find the need when I'm driving to the shops (and find that I can rev match quite easily without needing h'n't).
It's mechanical sympathy 1st and foremost. Agree you don't have to be braking to rev match though why would you pick a lower gear without braking?
monthefish said:
Yes, you don't have to brake hard or harshly to HnT, but it's the braking hard and harshly that necessitates HnT.
That'll be the large disparity between engine speed and driven wheel speed needing a blip to. Prevent the rear wheels locking or snatching when down shifting.OlberJ said:
Yeah but you would do it when you don't "need" to, purely through mechanical sympathy, no?
No. I blip for mechanical sympathy when not pressing on, as there's plenty of time for the 'braking' and 'blipping' to be done seperately.thegoose said:
Even if you do all your braking before changing gear (IAM anyone? ) by definition the engine speed will be mis-matched to the gear you're going to select so increasing the engine speed to match still adds mechanical sympathy - this is always a benefit in any car and any conditions.
Yup, but once you've done your braking, your right foot is free to do all the rev matching you need. ) by definition the engine speed will be mis-matched to the gear you're going to select so increasing the engine speed to match still adds mechanical sympathy - this is always a benefit in any car and any conditions.GentlePersuasion said:
Now let that be the end of it!
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