How many external bearings has the AJP 8 got?

[Luckyone]

Sorry odd question, but I had an worrying squealing / screeching noise at about 4k that sounded like a clutch release bearing going, only but sticking my foot on the clutch had no effect, nor did revving it in neutral (the clutch release bearing feels fine if I spin it by hand now the ‘box is on the floor)
So I tried removing the air con belt first, then the alternator belt but it was still there.

I’ve rebuilt the car now, not the engine, but just remembered that is was doing this before stripping it & I don’t want to put it all back together for it to do it again. The engine is on a stand in the back of the garage so now is the time to tackle it!

It really sounded like a bearing going, but I assume any inside the engine wouldn’t sound like an external one, so are there any others that don’t get a constant flow of engine oil? I assume the oil & PAS pumps bearings are lubricated by their own fluids, but is the water pump a self contained part of that pump assembly so a possible contender?

The only other possibility is that I found due to the engine & ‘box mounts being bent the exhaust manifolds were rubbing on the chassis in a place I couldn’t see till I took the body off. They made an interesting noise all of their own when cornering at speed, but I suppose it’s possible they hit a certain harmonic at 4k when lightly rubbing, although I think a bearing is much more likely.

[aide]

You could perhaps have the engine bench dynoed while it's out of the car?

[Luckyone]

aide said:

You could perhaps have the engine bench dynoed while it's out of the car?

That’s a thought, I was trying to think if I had any electric motors strong enough to spin it over (with the spark plugs out) Or maybe failing that, removing the timing chain & spinning just the pumps.

[jammy_basturd]

Luckyone said:

That’s a thought, I was trying to think if I had any electric motors strong enough to spin it over (with the spark plugs out) Or maybe failing that, removing the timing chain & spinning just the pumps.

My electric impact wrench would be capable of spinning the engine with plugs out.

[Luckyone]

jammy_basturd said:

My electric impact wrench would be capable of spinning the engine with plugs out.

Yeah I was thinking my air powered one would do it too, but I'm not so keen on it using its hammer action on the crank pulley nut & over tightening it, or worse

[ukkid35]

Luckyone said:

That’s a thought, I was trying to think if I had any electric motors strong enough to spin it over (with the spark plugs out) Or maybe failing that, removing the timing chain & spinning just the pumps.

The reason you don't want to use the starter motor is...?

[Luckyone]

ukkid35 said:

The reason you don't want to use the starter motor is...?

I may give that a bash but even with out the spark plugs in I don't think the starter has much chance of getting the engine up to 4000 RPM

Actually thinking about it when I was doing the compression test it didn't make any undue noises.

[jammy_basturd]

Luckyone said:

Yeah I was thinking my air powered one would do it too, but I'm not so keen on it using its hammer action on the crank pulley nut & over tightening it, or worse

I guess the danger is there. Maybe turn it over by hand first to get the oil pressure up, plugs out, spin it over, with the least resistance possible on the engine turning over any over-tightening should be minimal (maybe take the gearbox off too for the first test). Stick a tippex mark on the bolt and pulley to see if it moves.

If it does, buy a new bolt and replace.

Having said all that, I have this impact wrench (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-cew1000-electric-impact-wrench), which won't hit 4k rpm.

[Luckyone]

jammy_basturd said:

I guess the danger is there. Maybe turn it over by hand first to get the oil pressure up, plugs out, spin it over, with the least resistance possible on the engine turning over any over-tightening should be minimal (maybe take the gearbox off too for the first test). Stick a tippex mark on the bolt and pulley to see if it moves.

If it does, buy a new bolt and replace.

Having said all that, I have this impact wrench (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-cew1000-electric-impact-wrench), which won't hit 4k rpm.

On checking my air wrench I found will hit 7K RMP (although probably not with the engine attached), but it's more the crank nose pinion I'm worried about, there was a thread on here a few years back where someone had theirs shear off.

I'm leaning towards taking the cam chain off then I should be able to spin up the individual parts more easily, which will hopefully make finding the problem bearing. Only problem is I'll end up taking more & more bits off till I've stripped a perfectly good engine...

[APMAUTO]

hi andy worth checking the woodruff drive key for the pas pump as these can shear and make a similar noise as the pulley slips on the shaft

andy(APM)

[Luckyone]

APMAUTO said:

hi andy worth checking the woodruff drive key for the pas pump as these can shear and make a similar noise as the pulley slips on the shaft

andy(APM)

Hi Andy, long time no see! Thanks for that, I'll check that first then

Randomly your old mate Kevin lives across the road from me, he said he misses seeing you down the site & hopes you are well, so do I!

Thanks again,

Andy

[Luckyone]

Doesn’t look like it was the PAS pump, it’s had an interesting mod, there is no woodruff drive key instead it looks like a new hole has been drilled & tapped with a much bigger grub screw tightened down into the keyway:



The other (I assume normal) small grub screw is still there on the other side but it just comes down to the shaft where the woodruff key would have been in the drive wheel. It’s a little odd but must have been like that since 2002 when MoleVally charged us 2.5 grand for it’s first 12k service, they billed for a new woodruff key (I didn’t know at the time it was an engine out job) but can forgive them now as it has lasted ok. There is no sign of it having slipped at all the locktight is still all nicely in there & the witness marks from the grub screw in the key way look clean. So I think I may put that back as it was as it’s lasted so long.


On the up side I think the noise could actually be the clutch release bearing after all, it felt ok spinning by hand but with the windy gun it’s not so good:

http://youtu.be/3Tuw0DzsDoY

Edit: that link doesn't seem to work but the vid is there http://youtu.be/3Tuw0DzsDoY

It’s not bad but I guess that would fit with it not making a noise all the time?

I’m I right in thinking the clutch release bearings tend to stay attached to the clutch all the time? Also it’s quite wet in there, looks like the seals have gone again, maybe the addition of some hydraulic fluid to the release bearing didn’t do it any good. I guess failing seals could make the bearing stick on a bit if it’s not meant to contact the clutch with out the pedal down?

Thanks for leaving it all so nice in there last time you did the seals APM Andy:



Looks like you used new bolts I still cant bloody shift them though – must try harder...

Edited by Luckyone on Tuesday 28th May 14:53

Edited by Luckyone on Tuesday 28th May 14:56

[ukkid35]

Luckyone said:

Doesn’t look like it was the PAS pump, it’s had an interesting mod, there is no woodruff drive key instead it looks like a new hole has been drilled & tapped with a much bigger grub screw tightened down into the keyway:

Sadly what you can see is not the Woodruff key in question.

Although it's definitely worth checking the grub screw you've found, the fragile Woodruff key is hidden from view.

[Luckyone]

ukkid35 said:

Sadly what you can see is not the Woodruff key in question.

Although it's definitely worth checking the grub screw you've found, the fragile Woodruff key is hidden from view.

The little original grub screw is still there :



It comes right down though the pulley key way to contact the shaft:



I assume that grub screw is meant to come down on to the Woodruff key?

As far as I can tell (having never actually taken one out) the pully has been rotated 180 deg & a new hole has been drilled & tapped on the opposite side, so that new big grub screw can tighten down into the shafts key way.



The empty shaft key way is visible at the bottom of the hole, unless the shaft has two key ways in it there cant be a Woodruff key in there as the key ways on the pulley & shaft are on opposite sides.

Or did you mean the Woodruff key I'm looking for is on a different component, like the PAS pump its self? The pulley on that looks to be a factory press fit though?

[ukkid35]

My understanding is that there are at least two Woodruff keys, there is a key at each point on the shaft where drive is taken from the shaft to power the pumps (oil and water). The grub screw should seat on a flat on the shaft (it does on mine anyway), it also looks about the same size as fitted to mine.

I admit I’m not sure where the PS pump Woodruff Key is located (though it is often mentioned as a weakness); the Oil pump key is definitely known to fail, with potentially catastrophic results.

[spitfire4v8]

I did that exact same tapped hole mod on several cerbs early on before I started fitting electric pumps instead. soon after that the factory copied me .. I should have got a royalty

[ukkid35]

Now I understand, thanks to both of you for the explanation (serves me right for skimming PH posts while at work).

My car is also a '98, and looks the same as yours, though I have no idea whether it has had Joolz' mod, or came like that from the factory.

What I don't understand is why the PS Woodruff key fix is always referred to as an engine out job (or why electric PS became the preferred fix).

Edited by ukkid35 on Wednesday 29th May 18:09