My Cerbera project begins - anyone with any history?
Discussion
I have been quite lucky (I say that now before work begins) and found a decent 1998 4.5 Cerbera project car whilst I was out and about looking for a Cerbera donor for a LS rebuild. So, I bought it and after a very stressful and long day yesterday I have finally got it back in my garage ready for work to commence.
Here is how the car travelled back from London, it was fun getting that trailer around rush hour traffic in Chiswick. It is massive. It was even more fun trying to turn it around in the road to pick up the car:
And here is the car:
And here is the interior - the carpet isn't as bright in real life but still very green:
So, I said it was a project and this is why. The car was taken off the road about 18 months ago due to the read diff bushes causing knocking. The owner (who is a really nice guy) had attempted to repair this himself but lost motivation and never finished it. He go to the point of removing most of the rear chassis/suspension components and then gave up.
Some people may be wondering why I want to start a project like this getting a Cerbera back on the road given my usual very demanding level of perfection and my LS cerb aspirations. The truth is I want to have a go at a track day or two and to drive TVR's more often in general. Also, I want to learn more about cars/mechanics and thought the best way to learn is by doing.
So here's the good, the bad and the ugly details:
There will be many questions along the way so anyone with sound knowledge please feel free to offer advice. Even simple things like reassembling the rear brakes will probably have me stumped I seem to have a load of springs and I am not sure where they go.
I know here will be frustrations and setbacks along the way but I am positive about the project...lets see how long that lasts!
Right, very long post and I know but I plan on keeping it updated with progress as I work through my job list.
I'm looking forward to the first drive already.
Edited to fix broken image links.
Here is how the car travelled back from London, it was fun getting that trailer around rush hour traffic in Chiswick. It is massive. It was even more fun trying to turn it around in the road to pick up the car:
And here is the car:
And here is the interior - the carpet isn't as bright in real life but still very green:
So, I said it was a project and this is why. The car was taken off the road about 18 months ago due to the read diff bushes causing knocking. The owner (who is a really nice guy) had attempted to repair this himself but lost motivation and never finished it. He go to the point of removing most of the rear chassis/suspension components and then gave up.
Some people may be wondering why I want to start a project like this getting a Cerbera back on the road given my usual very demanding level of perfection and my LS cerb aspirations. The truth is I want to have a go at a track day or two and to drive TVR's more often in general. Also, I want to learn more about cars/mechanics and thought the best way to learn is by doing.
So here's the good, the bad and the ugly details:
- The car needs to have it's diff bushes replaced. I have a new bush removal tool and three new powerflex diff bushes (cam with the car) but it will probably still be a pig of a job.
- The chassis needs some work. The main rails and in general it is pretty good with light rust in places that should clean up fine. The outrigger rails on the sides are OK but do have heavier rust. One of the outriggers is still intact (no holes) but the other has started to hole from the top if you feel around on top of the tubes with your fingers. My plan is to strip, rust treat and paint the chassis as is to stabilise and preserve the outriggers as much as possible with a view to getting an MOT on it. It will need a new outrigger at some point but I think it will be OK for a year (so I can have some fun in it) and there are certainly worse cars driving around.
- I will have to rebuild most the rear end. The propshaft if off, diff virtually out, drive shafts out, suspension and wishbones virtually off (loosely tightened back up to move car).
- I want to drain and replace all fluids and the brake hoses and fuel lines.
- The bodywork is pretty good. The only problem is it has (fairly recently I think) has a front end respray and the paint looks flatter than the rest of the car. The original paint is listed as Oxford green and has a metallic shine to it. The new front end paint although very close in colour lacks the metallic shine. But, this could be a plus point in a way. The fact it will need another front end respray to get the bodywork spot on means I won't have any worries when it gets stone chipped to hell on track days or airfield runs.
- The service history has a problem...it has a service history and the original handbook but it has gotten water damaged. The pages have been dried and peeled apart but much of the service stamp pages are no longer readable. It does have a folder box of more recent invoices for work carried out (some decent amounts of money too) and about 7-8 old MOTs.
- The oil pressure gauge isn't showing a reading but I firmly beleive this is just the gauge. The owner was honest about everything and a really nice guy. I doubt he would have lied just to shift the car. He said the gauge used to show oil pressure usually 45+ cold 30ish hot but was removed as the water temp stopped reading and sent to speedy cables for repair. I have the speedy cables invoice for the repair. After it was refitted the water temp works but the oil pressure stopped working - it doesn't budge. The oil light goes off as it should when you start it up so the car must have at least 10psi.
- The window wipers are fubared.
- One side of the bonnet lock mechanism isn't retracting when you turn the dial.
- The top scuttle panel has some damage to the end where the bolt onto the wing goes. I may try to rebuild this with fibreglass as you can't see it anyway when the bonnet is shut.
- The mileage is high at 87,000 miles - not that this is a bad thing as it looks like it was once a very cared for car. Also, in the service history one of the pages that is just about readable you can make out the words the words at 24,000 miles ish "Engine ----- carried out by TVR ------ Full Engine ---Bui--d" which I think was an engine rebuild by TVR under warranty. I say this as I think it covered the high miles of it's life very early on. One of the service cards that can be read in 2001 was for it's 60,000 service when (looking at the dates) the car wasn't yet three years old. So this would make about 63,000 miles on this engine.
- The car has had a number of higher quality replacement components:
- Short induction
- Carbon fibre air look air intakes and air filter housing.
- Gold badges - they look brand new.
- White led side indicators
- Leven stainless adjustable pedals
- Leven stainless petrol cap
- Top end new(ish) stereo head unit
- Radtec alloy radiator
- Fully de-cat
- Sports exhaust
- Dipped spiders - look a dark anodised/chromeish effect.
- Alloy interior handbrake
- Rear lights conversion
- The car has had a new clutch fitted.
- The car had the gearbox removed and rebuild recently.
- The engine sounds healthy. This last point is a surprising one - surprising that the car started after sitting dormant for so long with a set of jump cables attached. I know you shouldn't start a car without building oil pressure and changing the fuel after sitting for this long but when I went to see the car pre-purchase that wasn't an option and I would rather have confirmation of a good engine that a broken one before I purchased. Also, no warning lights showing and engine revved freely (within the limits of how much I wanted to rev it).
- It is f
king loud! Mostly to do with the exhaust being removed but my last 4.5 Cerbera was fully decat with a sports exhaust and if it sounds like that once rebuilt did I will be delighted.
There will be many questions along the way so anyone with sound knowledge please feel free to offer advice. Even simple things like reassembling the rear brakes will probably have me stumped I seem to have a load of springs and I am not sure where they go.
I know here will be frustrations and setbacks along the way but I am positive about the project...lets see how long that lasts!
Right, very long post and I know but I plan on keeping it updated with progress as I work through my job list.
I'm looking forward to the first drive already.
Edited to fix broken image links.
Edited by TimJM on Saturday 1st June 07:57
Looks great!
The only thing that made me pause for thought is the engine mileage, be it 87k or 60k.
At 87k I think it likely that the intake valves are probably reaching the end of their lives - they stretch, or sink, not sure which. Either way you won't be able to set the valve clearances correctly soon, without risking shim failure. However, that would make it a possible LS project which is what you were looking for.
The only thing that made me pause for thought is the engine mileage, be it 87k or 60k.
At 87k I think it likely that the intake valves are probably reaching the end of their lives - they stretch, or sink, not sure which. Either way you won't be able to set the valve clearances correctly soon, without risking shim failure. However, that would make it a possible LS project which is what you were looking for.
It looks fantastic Tim. Its got all extras that I would want; clealrly owned by someone appreciative of it at some point. I'm certainly envious of your mods and yet again green with carpet envy :P Good luck with the project, I can't wait to see how you get on. If you need a hand with anything I would love to help and gain some experience working on Cerbs. I hope my black 4.5 is half as nice when it arrives in a couple of weeks time! All the best
Gazzab said:
Looks great. Air boxes are original items surely?
At that mileage and age I would bite the bullet and body off and LS if that's what you want...
They probably are original - my last 4.5 had the air intakes in carbon dip but a plain air filter housing at the front. This one has both dipped so maybe my last 4.5 was just a bit different that day (or TVR un out of 4.5 ones and stuck on a 4.2 one).At that mileage and age I would bite the bullet and body off and LS if that's what you want...
No - this one isn't for a body off LS. I have another in mind for that. This one is just to have a little fun with, learn a little about cars and put back on the road. If it all goes wrong and bites me in the ass I haven't put too much money into it so not a major problem.
This one is going to be cheap and cheerful...hopefully.
m3coupe said:
I know of this car, the seller contacted me about it last month. Unfortunately I couldn't act on it due to a wedding and house purchase. The high mileage also put me and my local TVR specialist off.
Be interesting reading this thread though.
The mileage is high but reading the history it could be closer to 60k on this engine. The gearbox is rebuilt and the clutch new. My experience of AJPs has been positive and they are strong engines. I would be surprised if this had major problems in the near future. Didn't somebody have one on here on an original engine without rebuild and tracked/raced frequently that was over 100k? There must be some high mile examples out there by now. Who knows, I might get 40k out of this engine before it goes pop - or I might get nowhere!Be interesting reading this thread though.
If the engine does go pop then at least I would get to learn about engines as well as other car components. Is it difficult to rebuild an engine? I wonder when I will find out.
87K ? - a mere strippling....just passed 88,888 and still as strong as .... a Cheetah on steroids.
Good Luck, Mate
(Will try and dig up the pictures of my brakes rebuild)
ETA
Ah, found ‘em now and remember that I had probs.
When I took ‘em apart, the top spring, which nestled next to the shoe-separator lever, had a long centre and a coil at each end, like here….
but when I reassembled I could only buy a short, centre coil with long arms, like here….
The bottom spring, adjacent to the adjuster, is the one with the long spring.
Don’t forget the shoe retainer springs and their 90 degree retaining pins….
HTH
Good Luck, Mate
(Will try and dig up the pictures of my brakes rebuild)
ETA
Ah, found ‘em now and remember that I had probs.
When I took ‘em apart, the top spring, which nestled next to the shoe-separator lever, had a long centre and a coil at each end, like here….
but when I reassembled I could only buy a short, centre coil with long arms, like here….
The bottom spring, adjacent to the adjuster, is the one with the long spring.
Don’t forget the shoe retainer springs and their 90 degree retaining pins….
HTH
Edited by Mr Cerbera on Saturday 1st June 16:34
Mr Cerbera said:
87K ? - a mere strippling....just passed 88,888 and still as strong as .... a Cheetah on steroids.
Good Luck, Mate
(Will try and dig up the pictures of my brakes rebuild)
ETA
Ah, found ‘em now and remember that I had probs.
When I took ‘em apart, the top spring, which nestled next to the shoe-separator lever, had a long centre and a coil at each end, like here….
but when I reassembled I could only buy a short, centre coil with long arms, like here….
The bottom spring, adjacent to the adjuster, is the one with the long spring.
Don’t forget the shoe retainer springs and their 90 degree retaining pins….
HTH
That's great. Those pics are just the sort of thing I need to work out what goes where with my box of bits. Hopefully all the bits are there I just need to work out where to stick them.Good Luck, Mate
(Will try and dig up the pictures of my brakes rebuild)
ETA
Ah, found ‘em now and remember that I had probs.
When I took ‘em apart, the top spring, which nestled next to the shoe-separator lever, had a long centre and a coil at each end, like here….
but when I reassembled I could only buy a short, centre coil with long arms, like here….
The bottom spring, adjacent to the adjuster, is the one with the long spring.
Don’t forget the shoe retainer springs and their 90 degree retaining pins….
HTH
I bought my '97 4.2 just over 10 years ago with 82k miles on the clock. At this time, a typical Cerb had about 14k miles on it, so this was a leap of faith. . I too worried about high mileage, but learnt to relax. It's now got 160k miles on it with no rebuild (camchains replaced at 110k as the engine had to come out to fish out a bolt that had dropped in the sump).
I quite like that colour combo. 
...it also looks as though you've got the kiddie seat mount in that one.
FWIW - If one of the outriggers has already started to "hole from the top", you might as well bite the bullet & get the body off. Once you've done the chassis, brake lines & that fecking diff bush, pretty much everything else can be done with the body on.
M
...it also looks as though you've got the kiddie seat mount in that one.
FWIW - If one of the outriggers has already started to "hole from the top", you might as well bite the bullet & get the body off. Once you've done the chassis, brake lines & that fecking diff bush, pretty much everything else can be done with the body on.
M
SimonSparrow said:
I bought my '97 4.2 just over 10 years ago with 82k miles on the clock. At this time, a typical Cerb had about 14k miles on it, so this was a leap of faith. . I too worried about high mileage, but learnt to relax. It's now got 160k miles on it with no rebuild (camchains replaced at 110k as the engine had to come out to fish out a bolt that had dropped in the sump).
That's what I like to hear. Here's hoping I'm the next 160k club member.LS Cerb said:
Tim
Like the colour of your Cerbera
Could you tell me the paint code and the name of the colour if you know it?
I got a feeling it might be the rare emerald green? that flips to a blue in the lightLike the colour of your Cerbera
Could you tell me the paint code and the name of the colour if you know it?
From what I've tracked down there's lexus/toyota, jag, dodge viper, Porsche in that colour
And non of them are the same as my friggin colour!
LS Cerb said:
Tim
Like the colour of your Cerbera
Could you tell me the paint code and the name of the colour if you know it?
Just had a look this morning in the owners handbook and the colour is.....Oxford Green. It looks like it was a special as the paint code line just has a line through it. The leather and trim options are listed with TVR codes though. This might explain why the front end respray colour match is so poor. If they couldn't find out what colour paint was originally used.Like the colour of your Cerbera
Could you tell me the paint code and the name of the colour if you know it?
I have just had a quick browse and I think it is a BMW colour. This looks like the colour:
And if you look at this one it shows the metalic in the paint that is missing from the front end respray which is making it look duller. I think I will get the car on the road, do some track days and then respray th front to match. At least I won't care about stone chips.
Well I have been working on the car tonight - my first free night from wok/other stuff. I didn't get the diff out as planned tonight but that's because I started taking loads more stuff out than I intended.
Here is what I have achieved in the last 4 hours:
I have finally tracked down the colour, although the handbook doesn't have a paint code the plate on the car does. The body code is: P422/6KN1B. After some searching on-line I found a very useful pdf containing many thousands of paint codes for all different car manufacturers. Here is a link:
http://it.nexaautocolor.com/media/213766/nexa_libr...
and on page 81 of 1061 what did I find:
BMW
OE code: 324
Description: OXFORDGRUEN
Colour Family: Green
Usage: Body
First Yr: 1993
Last Yr: 2001
Brand Code: 6KN1B <------------MY CODE!!!
Variant Code: NO 1
Mixing Scheme: AQUABASE PLUS
Colour Box: APVD
Chip Reference: A-002
Colour Box 2: AutoPlus
Chip Reference 2: 6
I am very pleased with that. Should make a front end respray much easier now I can match the colour.
Then I started removing bits of the rear suspension, so far I have out:
I have also ordered some better axle stands to try and get the car a little higher/safer. Hopefully they will be here tomorrow which should make my life easier.
Here's some pics of tonight's progress.
The handbrake shoes don't have much material left on them - might be best to just replace them:
The drivers rear lower wishbone. As with many parts of the chassis it has held up OK. Once you scrape away the waxoil/dirt it doesn't look too bad:
The upright and drivers side drive shaft awaiting separation, this looks quite rusty but agian I think it will clean up OK - see the next photo for a cleaned one:
This is the passenger upright, top and lower wishbone and suspension off. The last owner stripped and painted the upright and generally the passenger side is worse than the drivers side for some reason. It has cleaned up OK so I have high hopes for the drivers side one in the last photo:
Possibly the best £9 I have spent - the bolts were very badly rusted up and I had to give all of them a good squirt of plusgas but even then without this breaker bar they wouldn't budge. It is amazing what a little leverage can do.
I just have the suspension and top wishbone to come off the drivers side, look at that rusty anti roll bar. It seems to be worse than most the chassis:
The passenger side is all stripped out now ready for me to start wire brushing and sanding:
Here is the leaky diff, it should be coming out Thursday so I can re-seal it and paint it before I change the bushes:
I don't know whether to take the anti roll bar out. I am not sure I will have enough room as my garage is tight to work in, I have even less room the other side:
So all in all a good night work. I only have two bolts left to remove from the drivers side and whilst some have been real pigs that have all come out eventually. Some of them didn't have much copper ease on (or whatever lubricant was used) and were quite dry. I have to drift a few out and use a crowbar to lever out the ones where I couldn't get a drift in.
Time for a cup of tea then bed.
Here is what I have achieved in the last 4 hours:
I have finally tracked down the colour, although the handbook doesn't have a paint code the plate on the car does. The body code is: P422/6KN1B. After some searching on-line I found a very useful pdf containing many thousands of paint codes for all different car manufacturers. Here is a link:
http://it.nexaautocolor.com/media/213766/nexa_libr...
and on page 81 of 1061 what did I find:
BMW
OE code: 324
Description: OXFORDGRUEN
Colour Family: Green
Usage: Body
First Yr: 1993
Last Yr: 2001
Brand Code: 6KN1B <------------MY CODE!!!
Variant Code: NO 1
Mixing Scheme: AQUABASE PLUS
Colour Box: APVD
Chip Reference: A-002
Colour Box 2: AutoPlus
Chip Reference 2: 6
I am very pleased with that. Should make a front end respray much easier now I can match the colour.
Then I started removing bits of the rear suspension, so far I have out:
- Rear passenger drive-shaft, hub, upright, suspension, upper and lower wishbone.
- Rear drivers drive-shaft, hub, upright, lower wishbone. I still have the suspension and upper wishbone to remove but it was getting late.
I have also ordered some better axle stands to try and get the car a little higher/safer. Hopefully they will be here tomorrow which should make my life easier.
Here's some pics of tonight's progress.
The handbrake shoes don't have much material left on them - might be best to just replace them:
The drivers rear lower wishbone. As with many parts of the chassis it has held up OK. Once you scrape away the waxoil/dirt it doesn't look too bad:
The upright and drivers side drive shaft awaiting separation, this looks quite rusty but agian I think it will clean up OK - see the next photo for a cleaned one:
This is the passenger upright, top and lower wishbone and suspension off. The last owner stripped and painted the upright and generally the passenger side is worse than the drivers side for some reason. It has cleaned up OK so I have high hopes for the drivers side one in the last photo:
Possibly the best £9 I have spent - the bolts were very badly rusted up and I had to give all of them a good squirt of plusgas but even then without this breaker bar they wouldn't budge. It is amazing what a little leverage can do.
I just have the suspension and top wishbone to come off the drivers side, look at that rusty anti roll bar. It seems to be worse than most the chassis:
The passenger side is all stripped out now ready for me to start wire brushing and sanding:
Here is the leaky diff, it should be coming out Thursday so I can re-seal it and paint it before I change the bushes:
I don't know whether to take the anti roll bar out. I am not sure I will have enough room as my garage is tight to work in, I have even less room the other side:
So all in all a good night work. I only have two bolts left to remove from the drivers side and whilst some have been real pigs that have all come out eventually. Some of them didn't have much copper ease on (or whatever lubricant was used) and were quite dry. I have to drift a few out and use a crowbar to lever out the ones where I couldn't get a drift in.
Time for a cup of tea then bed.
Edited by TimJM on Wednesday 5th June 01:04
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