Poorly '96 500-Appears to be head gasket at 23K
Discussion
Hello all,
Got a problem, appears to be quite a big one too, to give a breif history, took my 500 out for a drive the other day and noticed that instead of hovvering around the usual 90 deg mark on a run it was on around 100 deg. Thought it a bit odd as in 15 years it's always sat on around 90....
Anyhow, topped up the header tank as it usually uses a little and finds its own level and took it for a run a few days later. The temp has now risen to around the 110 deg mark on the same run at which point I pulled over and abandoned ship-temp refused to come down with fans running all the time, rad was hot so 'stat opening and rad looks clear(although haven't checked by back flushing). Once stopped I could hear water spitting/leaking out from the rear of what appeared to be both rocker cover gaskets, but, after a re-think could have been lower down(I was on the side of the road at the time).
Before you ask, yes, there is a little emulsion on the filler cap and the filler neck(never seen it before now) but nothing on the dip stick.
Would appreciate your thoughts as I fear a head gasket has let go however I just pray it's not a cracked block. I'm also hoping the water pump could be fubared but I've heard that this is pretty rare..
Been relularly serviced with Mob 1 and a genuine 23K on the clock and has been faultless since 2K when I bought her in '98.
Comments(I'm a big boy, I can take it) appreciated.
Thanks.
JC
Got a problem, appears to be quite a big one too, to give a breif history, took my 500 out for a drive the other day and noticed that instead of hovvering around the usual 90 deg mark on a run it was on around 100 deg. Thought it a bit odd as in 15 years it's always sat on around 90....
Anyhow, topped up the header tank as it usually uses a little and finds its own level and took it for a run a few days later. The temp has now risen to around the 110 deg mark on the same run at which point I pulled over and abandoned ship-temp refused to come down with fans running all the time, rad was hot so 'stat opening and rad looks clear(although haven't checked by back flushing). Once stopped I could hear water spitting/leaking out from the rear of what appeared to be both rocker cover gaskets, but, after a re-think could have been lower down(I was on the side of the road at the time).
Before you ask, yes, there is a little emulsion on the filler cap and the filler neck(never seen it before now) but nothing on the dip stick.
Would appreciate your thoughts as I fear a head gasket has let go however I just pray it's not a cracked block. I'm also hoping the water pump could be fubared but I've heard that this is pretty rare..
Been relularly serviced with Mob 1 and a genuine 23K on the clock and has been faultless since 2K when I bought her in '98.
Comments(I'm a big boy, I can take it) appreciated.
Thanks.
JC
I'm obviously wild guessing but there are other alternatives to the head gasket, the heater pipes go round the rear of the rockers and they carry water, there is also the blanked off rubber pipes that 'used' to go into the throttle body floating around the rockers. There is also the valley gasket which I think also is a gasket for water channels, but I'm not sure of that one.
I had a similar problem a while back that turned out to be crud in the system. Worth checking for blockages see:
http://www.bertram-hill.co.uk/Pages/grifcooling.as...
Best of luck
http://www.bertram-hill.co.uk/Pages/grifcooling.as...
Best of luck
Hi all, an update and a happy one at that I' m pleased to say!!!
Following a full leak down test on all the pots(cold and hot) and the results came back inconclusive(well balanced on all, circa 80% steady on all) we looked further....
Noticed that the fans weren't coming in as normal when it got up to working temp' hmmmm, then looked further into the cooling. Water evident in the expansion tank however, took the brass bung off the swirl tank and hey presto, empty!. Following filling with what was close to a watering can full of water, all is good in the world of 5 litre nirvana!! Took for a run and rock solid temp at 80 deg on a run or stationary. Hoping this is the end of the story but still a mystery as to where that water went in the first place..... Had a major service last year(300 miles ago) so air locked since then??? No water in the sump etc, weird.
Anyway, hopefully I've been lucky this time but time will tell..
Thanks for your input on this guys
Following a full leak down test on all the pots(cold and hot) and the results came back inconclusive(well balanced on all, circa 80% steady on all) we looked further....
Noticed that the fans weren't coming in as normal when it got up to working temp' hmmmm, then looked further into the cooling. Water evident in the expansion tank however, took the brass bung off the swirl tank and hey presto, empty!. Following filling with what was close to a watering can full of water, all is good in the world of 5 litre nirvana!! Took for a run and rock solid temp at 80 deg on a run or stationary. Hoping this is the end of the story but still a mystery as to where that water went in the first place..... Had a major service last year(300 miles ago) so air locked since then??? No water in the sump etc, weird.
Anyway, hopefully I've been lucky this time but time will tell..
Thanks for your input on this guys
griffthedog said:
Hi all, an update and a happy one at that I' m pleased to say!!!
Following a full leak down test on all the pots(cold and hot) and the results came back inconclusive(well balanced on all, circa 80% steady on all) we looked further....
Noticed that the fans weren't coming in as normal when it got up to working temp' hmmmm, then looked further into the cooling. Water evident in the expansion tank however, took the brass bung off the swirl tank and hey presto, empty!. Following filling with what was close to a watering can full of water, all is good in the world of 5 litre nirvana!! Took for a run and rock solid temp at 80 deg on a run or stationary. Hoping this is the end of the story but still a mystery as to where that water went in the first place..... Had a major service last year(300 miles ago) so air locked since then??? No water in the sump etc, weird.
Anyway, hopefully I've been lucky this time but time will tell..
Thanks for your input on this guys
Sounds familiar! Following a full leak down test on all the pots(cold and hot) and the results came back inconclusive(well balanced on all, circa 80% steady on all) we looked further....
Noticed that the fans weren't coming in as normal when it got up to working temp' hmmmm, then looked further into the cooling. Water evident in the expansion tank however, took the brass bung off the swirl tank and hey presto, empty!. Following filling with what was close to a watering can full of water, all is good in the world of 5 litre nirvana!! Took for a run and rock solid temp at 80 deg on a run or stationary. Hoping this is the end of the story but still a mystery as to where that water went in the first place..... Had a major service last year(300 miles ago) so air locked since then??? No water in the sump etc, weird.
Anyway, hopefully I've been lucky this time but time will tell..
Thanks for your input on this guys
cracked water pump in my case. Sounds like the classic blockage between swirl pot and header tank. Useually corrosion of aluminium outlets on swirl pot or the inlet in header tank, stops flow from header tank to the engine cooling circuit. Worth removing the connecting water hose and rodding out the connections to swirl pot and header tank.
Well, so much for a happy ending!!!
Following the run previously the car was left for around two weeks. Checked the oil level and guess what, the engine had managed to make oil by about 1 litre!!! Or so I thought(not). Clearly there was water in the sump and lo and behold the water level had dropped.
To cut a very long story short I called Dom at 'power.
To cut a short story (read diagnosis) short it's going in for a full rebuild within the next few weeks...... Slipped, or if you like cracked liner... Same outcome, you get water in the sump. One of those little sods as broken free of its moorings and jumps up and down as the piston does, and hey presto the water finds it''s way into the sump through the gaps created...
Nuff said...
As a fix for good, top hat linered block for £575 followed by a full rebuild. Question is guys, Dom has priced a standard 500 rebuild at £3,250 compared to a Taraka at £3,750. I know which way I'm swaying at the moment but would still like to hear your comments and thoughts of which way to go(linered block a given)
Cheers!!!
Following the run previously the car was left for around two weeks. Checked the oil level and guess what, the engine had managed to make oil by about 1 litre!!! Or so I thought(not). Clearly there was water in the sump and lo and behold the water level had dropped.
To cut a very long story short I called Dom at 'power.
To cut a short story (read diagnosis) short it's going in for a full rebuild within the next few weeks...... Slipped, or if you like cracked liner... Same outcome, you get water in the sump. One of those little sods as broken free of its moorings and jumps up and down as the piston does, and hey presto the water finds it''s way into the sump through the gaps created...
Nuff said...
As a fix for good, top hat linered block for £575 followed by a full rebuild. Question is guys, Dom has priced a standard 500 rebuild at £3,250 compared to a Taraka at £3,750. I know which way I'm swaying at the moment but would still like to hear your comments and thoughts of which way to go(linered block a given)
Cheers!!!
Jason, I had similar but different experience a few weeks ago. I convinced myself I had a blown head gasket/slipped liner. No water in oil but I couldn't find out why I kept losing water and I couldn't get bubbles out of the cooling water. I also spoke to Jason at TVR Power and became fairly convinced of the same and was considering a Taraka (gritting my teeth more like).
The first thing I did eventually was to drop by my local Halfrauds garage and they had a 'sniffer'. A good bloke tested my cooling water and said there was no carbon/exhaust gases in the water. I asked him how reliable the test was and he said he had never know it to fail. I have since bought a whole new cooling system, ACT hoses, Aaron radiator, new thermostat and am in the process of fitting those now. It is well worth getting your cooling water tested to give yourself a 100% assurance whether or not it is head gasket. They didn't charge me anything for the test but I can't imagine it will cost you more than a tenner or so.
I looked at the Taraka engine and the reputation is second to none but I didn't want to spend that sort of money and I also wanted to rebuild the engine myself so I was seriously thinking of using Turner Engineering:
http://turner-engineering.co.uk/index.html
They offer stepped ductile iron liners with 'O' rings which solve all the slipped liner problems and they will rebuild your engine to whatever level you want. I didn't tot up how much they would cost in total but you should seriously consider them. Let's be honest, there are not that many options to the short engine once you have relinered it, put in a new cam and renewed all the bits and pieces (cam followers, chain, bearings etc.) A big expense will be if you replace the pistons. When I spoke to them, they were very knowledgeable and helpful with information. When I rebuild the engine of my other Griff I am pretty convinced I will use Turner - any experiences out there...?
Worth thinking about.....
Good luck, Pete
The first thing I did eventually was to drop by my local Halfrauds garage and they had a 'sniffer'. A good bloke tested my cooling water and said there was no carbon/exhaust gases in the water. I asked him how reliable the test was and he said he had never know it to fail. I have since bought a whole new cooling system, ACT hoses, Aaron radiator, new thermostat and am in the process of fitting those now. It is well worth getting your cooling water tested to give yourself a 100% assurance whether or not it is head gasket. They didn't charge me anything for the test but I can't imagine it will cost you more than a tenner or so.
I looked at the Taraka engine and the reputation is second to none but I didn't want to spend that sort of money and I also wanted to rebuild the engine myself so I was seriously thinking of using Turner Engineering:
http://turner-engineering.co.uk/index.html
They offer stepped ductile iron liners with 'O' rings which solve all the slipped liner problems and they will rebuild your engine to whatever level you want. I didn't tot up how much they would cost in total but you should seriously consider them. Let's be honest, there are not that many options to the short engine once you have relinered it, put in a new cam and renewed all the bits and pieces (cam followers, chain, bearings etc.) A big expense will be if you replace the pistons. When I spoke to them, they were very knowledgeable and helpful with information. When I rebuild the engine of my other Griff I am pretty convinced I will use Turner - any experiences out there...?
Worth thinking about.....
Good luck, Pete
I was faced with a similar choice back in 2011 having decided I would use Dom at Tvr Power. The man maths was pretty simple as the delta cost was "only" £500. I posted up how I felt about the Taraka in Oct 2011 and have to say it remains the best money I've spent. The difference circa 50 ft lbs / bhp makes is significant and hugely enjoyable. I remain very happy with the engine build and reliability.
What I should mention though is that the "£500" delta didn't turn out to the the full cost because you do other things as well that make perfect sense when you have the engine out. One thing you may want to think about from an obsolescence perspective is the ecu. To get a Taraka ( or other similarly optimised engine ) engine delivering its best the Lucas, although very good, is, ultimately, restricted. At the time, I had the Tornado chip fitted and a remap at Power by Mark Adams. Worth it for so many reasons as Mark's diagnosis skills are legend. Time has moved on though you should at least consider the cost of making that change plus, say Omex for spark, against a more fully configurable ECU. I know there have been a lot of posts on this subject recently. I've actually gone back to Power in the last year and moved to their MBE conversion. I'll post up separately on that.
So, for me, if Power are your choice, without hesitation Taraka every time !
What I should mention though is that the "£500" delta didn't turn out to the the full cost because you do other things as well that make perfect sense when you have the engine out. One thing you may want to think about from an obsolescence perspective is the ecu. To get a Taraka ( or other similarly optimised engine ) engine delivering its best the Lucas, although very good, is, ultimately, restricted. At the time, I had the Tornado chip fitted and a remap at Power by Mark Adams. Worth it for so many reasons as Mark's diagnosis skills are legend. Time has moved on though you should at least consider the cost of making that change plus, say Omex for spark, against a more fully configurable ECU. I know there have been a lot of posts on this subject recently. I've actually gone back to Power in the last year and moved to their MBE conversion. I'll post up separately on that.
So, for me, if Power are your choice, without hesitation Taraka every time !
Thanks for the comments and advice there guys. The car is on the trailer at the moment and I'm hoping to get it to Dom within the next 2-3 weeks. Gutted to have the problem at such a low mileage but there you go, that's the joys of motoring I guess. Incidentally, what is the running in mileage? I'm guessing 1K after which I'll need to return for an oil change? Anyhow, looking forward to the drive back after the work, not looking forward to the bill though....
Well, as of today the car is now in the safe hands of Dom at power. Taken a few weeks to get it in as they are bows under with work but it's there now.
Not much to say really, but I had a quick look around the (very clean) machine shop and discussed a few problems Dom encounters with the RV8. Turns out he doesn't remember the last time he saw one with water in the sump..... Oh goody
Anyhow, the strip down will no doubt begin next week and the findings reported back. I'll keep you posted....
Cheers
JC
Not much to say really, but I had a quick look around the (very clean) machine shop and discussed a few problems Dom encounters with the RV8. Turns out he doesn't remember the last time he saw one with water in the sump..... Oh goody
Anyhow, the strip down will no doubt begin next week and the findings reported back. I'll keep you posted....
Cheers
JC
Well, the car's been with Dom now for 7 weeks, yes 7! To be fair, Dom did mention they were a tad busy....
Anyhow, work is well underway. The block has been top hat linered and built back up however, I spoke to Dom on Tuesday and he mentioned that when the crank was turned over by hand he could feel a slight tight spot. So, in true power tradition, the lot was stripped down again and the block sent for line honing!
As we discussed on the phone, there's only one way to do things and that's properly, we've gone this far and a not inconsiderable cost to match and it would be stupidity to cut any corners at this stage.
Dom is hoping to have it ready by next weekend but considering their workload, well, I'll take a rain check on that!
I've Decided to go Taraka plus after all once all was considered so looking forward to the outcome.
One thing that we discussed when talking were the virtues of fitting the MBE management system. Apparently the rover V8 responds well to modern ignition and excellent power can be liberated as a result. Maybe next year eh!!??
That's it for now, I tell you more when I know more.
Oh, just thought I'd mention, power have increased prices on the Taraka build by £500
however, it has been confirmed that as my car was already booked in and up there, the old price holds, thank you Dom
phew
JC
Anyhow, work is well underway. The block has been top hat linered and built back up however, I spoke to Dom on Tuesday and he mentioned that when the crank was turned over by hand he could feel a slight tight spot. So, in true power tradition, the lot was stripped down again and the block sent for line honing!
As we discussed on the phone, there's only one way to do things and that's properly, we've gone this far and a not inconsiderable cost to match and it would be stupidity to cut any corners at this stage.
Dom is hoping to have it ready by next weekend but considering their workload, well, I'll take a rain check on that!
I've Decided to go Taraka plus after all once all was considered so looking forward to the outcome.
One thing that we discussed when talking were the virtues of fitting the MBE management system. Apparently the rover V8 responds well to modern ignition and excellent power can be liberated as a result. Maybe next year eh!!??
That's it for now, I tell you more when I know more.
Oh, just thought I'd mention, power have increased prices on the Taraka build by £500
however, it has been confirmed that as my car was already booked in and up there, the old price holds, thank you Dom phewJC
It's back!! Taraka Plus No.51 is on the road.
Picked it up yesterday followed by an overnight stay in the Celtic Manor (like I hadn't spent enough already...)
Anyhow, as I have to run it in for the next 1K-below 3K RPM, there's not a lot to report really however, it does feel much smoother in it's delivery, certainly no harshness or hesitation and just wants you to use the revs...which I can't-yet.
One point worth mentioning is when we went to collect it one of Dom's crew mentioned that the plenum wasn't quite finished but Dom would explain? Turns out that they won't release a full fat Taraka conversion whilst running in is required. The plenum mods are omitted until you return upon which the modded plenum is fitted along with smooth bore inlet pipe. According to Dom the temptation to use too many revs in the running in period is too great when 'full fat' hence the plenum omission...just to real you in a bit.
Anyway, we're up to 280 miles already but from the limited time I've had behind the wheel I've got to say things really do look promising, sooooo smooth and eager to rev, impressive stuff I must say.
Anyhow, looking for any excuse to use it now as I need a minimum of 1K before I return to Coventry so would like to see around 12-1500 before the running in oil is dropped and the plenum work finished off-can't wait.
By the way, anyone seen Dom's 997 Turbo? NICE, very nice indeed but only has 520 brake....!!!! Look out for S6 AXE
Speak soon
Picked it up yesterday followed by an overnight stay in the Celtic Manor (like I hadn't spent enough already...)
Anyhow, as I have to run it in for the next 1K-below 3K RPM, there's not a lot to report really however, it does feel much smoother in it's delivery, certainly no harshness or hesitation and just wants you to use the revs...which I can't-yet.
One point worth mentioning is when we went to collect it one of Dom's crew mentioned that the plenum wasn't quite finished but Dom would explain? Turns out that they won't release a full fat Taraka conversion whilst running in is required. The plenum mods are omitted until you return upon which the modded plenum is fitted along with smooth bore inlet pipe. According to Dom the temptation to use too many revs in the running in period is too great when 'full fat' hence the plenum omission...just to real you in a bit.
Anyway, we're up to 280 miles already but from the limited time I've had behind the wheel I've got to say things really do look promising, sooooo smooth and eager to rev, impressive stuff I must say.
Anyhow, looking for any excuse to use it now as I need a minimum of 1K before I return to Coventry so would like to see around 12-1500 before the running in oil is dropped and the plenum work finished off-can't wait.
By the way, anyone seen Dom's 997 Turbo? NICE, very nice indeed but only has 520 brake....!!!! Look out for S6 AXE
Speak soon
Bobgriff said:
Congratulations! I have number 41 which has completed about 14k since the rebuild and am very happy with it, especially since letting Mark Adams loose on it as well. Get those miles done and enjoy the full benefits whilst we still have some summer left 
Hoping to go out tomorrow to clock up a few more, the hardship of it eh?!You mention that Mark has worked his magic but was wondering why it was needed? Interested as I do appear to have an idle problem that isn't attributed to the stepper or ecu as both these items have been swapper to no avail. Stepper doesn't do diddly once the engine has started, Jason at 'power reckons that something has been done to mask a problem but didn't really want to go digging at this stage. You can drive around the problem but it can be quite a nuisance trying to keep the revs up between changes. Any ideas anyone?
Cheers
JC
There is always more to get from the engine as I have upgraded the injectors and AFM as we'll as fully decatting. Mine never ran we'll over 4.5k, it kept running lean so mark got it spot on with his bespoke mapping rather than the generic map you will get with the Taraka. The majority will work perfectly mine was more of an anomaly. I find the engine to be great and never struggles to keep up with the pack on a run out 
Welcome to the club, I have number 49
Apart from the bill I have been very happy with the work that Dom has done, not that he over charged just he fixed a lot of other stuff while it was up there and the end result was more than expected, however, he transformed the car and as time goes on the bill becomes less important than the result
You experience of how long it takes was similar to mine but very happy with the result. Getting a laptop and the freeware software shortly so can take a look at how the Lucas is doing. I'm sure the car would appreciate a better ECU but at the moment the total cost would be too high and I figure that having a chassis without holes should really take priority
Apart from the bill I have been very happy with the work that Dom has done, not that he over charged just he fixed a lot of other stuff while it was up there and the end result was more than expected, however, he transformed the car and as time goes on the bill becomes less important than the result
You experience of how long it takes was similar to mine but very happy with the result. Getting a laptop and the freeware software shortly so can take a look at how the Lucas is doing. I'm sure the car would appreciate a better ECU but at the moment the total cost would be too high and I figure that having a chassis without holes should really take priority
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