991 GT3 A message for Chris
Discussion
Just an opinion regarding the road test on the new GT3 991 on youtube, I think its harsh and incorrect (whilst having no reliability data) to say this new engine will make you forget the Mezger unit,without a doubt the best engine Porsche has ever made (or will make),clearly Chris this is not so as the 991 RSR and CCup cars still use (as far as I know) the old Mezger unit so Porsche clearly don't view it at this stage as reliable and tuneable and have made their decision,I've also asked before how Homologation rules apply here? Also IMHO quoting previous reliability of engines as a benchmark is too a bit ambiguous given previous documented issues concerning reliability of the earlier versions of this engine (M96/7),that said I'm sure they have made twice as many and will sell twice as many,the GT3 is now moving IMO away from its roots and into volume.
That does look good in the new video and I bet the drive is absolutely superb. I take note his point about the turn in, when I got my 997.2 GT3 it took me two + weeks to get over the turn in, it is just so sharp on standard street tyres that I can't fathom how they could make it any better.
What I do find disingenuous about CH is that his story changes whenever they release a new model. In his review of the 997.2 he talks about how the 997.1 use to understeer and how they fixed it "it just doesn't" (anymore) was his quote at 2:40 and 3:54 when talking about the chassis. Yet in the new video he goes on to say how the 997 understeered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DWdH20Hmg
He did the same when the GT2 came out, whilst it is the current car it is sublime, yet when it gets replaced he starts talking about all the faults. Well if this is the case why didn't he raise them as points at the time?
I also love the launch control at the end of the video, that sounds nuts!
What I do find disingenuous about CH is that his story changes whenever they release a new model. In his review of the 997.2 he talks about how the 997.1 use to understeer and how they fixed it "it just doesn't" (anymore) was his quote at 2:40 and 3:54 when talking about the chassis. Yet in the new video he goes on to say how the 997 understeered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DWdH20Hmg
He did the same when the GT2 came out, whilst it is the current car it is sublime, yet when it gets replaced he starts talking about all the faults. Well if this is the case why didn't he raise them as points at the time?
I also love the launch control at the end of the video, that sounds nuts!
Gary11 said:
Just an opinion regarding the road test on the new GT3 991 on youtube, I think its harsh and incorrect (whilst having no reliability data) to say this new engine will make you forget the Mezger unit,without a doubt the best engine Porsche has ever made (or will make),clearly Chris this is not so as the 991 RSR and CCup cars still use (as far as I know) the old Mezger unit so Porsche clearly don't view it at this stage as reliable and tuneable and have made their decision,I've also asked before how Homologation rules apply here? Also IMHO quoting previous reliability of engines as a benchmark is too a bit ambiguous given previous documented issues concerning reliability of the earlier versions of this engine (M96/7),that said I'm sure they have made twice as many and will sell twice as many,the GT3 is now moving IMO away from its roots and into volume.
1) this new unit is going to be used in the Cup cars, the reason for the delay has been explained numerous times - it is nothing to do with reliability or tunability.2) C Harris was indicating that the new engine performs and sounds extremely good in the new car and therefore matches or exceeds the Mezger engine in that area
Having owned a 997 GT3 and driven the new GT3 I think he is better placed than you to compare the two!
sidicks said:
Having owned a 997 GT3 and driven the new GT3 I think he is better placed than you to compare the two!
Yes but that's also a bit naive? Who knows what vested interest he has. I've also made the point that the Gen 2 review said there was no understeer, and all of a sudden it becomes a fault which has been fixed.sidicks said:
1) this new unit is going to be used in the Cup cars, the reason for the delay has been explained numerous times - it is nothing to do with reliability or tunability.
2) C Harris was indicating that the new engine performs and sounds extremely good in the new car and therefore matches or exceeds the Mezger engine in that area
Having owned a 997 GT3 and driven the new GT3 I think he is better placed than you to compare the two!
Well perhaps you shouldn't just assume that.I viewed his test review of the 97 GT3 before the current 991 and it was almost the same in the many comparisons with the outgoing model,and also the one regarding earlier Gen1 or Gen2 cars,1430kgs is also important and unmentioned ,it will without doubt be a good car but the 997 GT3 even to an a/c enthusiast like me was gnarly noisy and a Porsche,the new 991 does not render the old model,slow,old and obsolete overnight or since his last review of the older car.It has clearly moved away from the original concept of the GT3 which not everyone buys into,as we have said before newer and quicker isnt always better for everyone. It is still way to early to say the drive train renders the Mezger obsolete we will see.2) C Harris was indicating that the new engine performs and sounds extremely good in the new car and therefore matches or exceeds the Mezger engine in that area
Having owned a 997 GT3 and driven the new GT3 I think he is better placed than you to compare the two!
Edited by Gary11 on Thursday 13th June 12:23
It's not difficult to understand that perceptions change surely, if you tested a RS2000 Escort in the late seventies you might say "it's blisteringly quick" you then test an Escort RS Turbo in the 90's and you might say "it's blisteringly quick" and then you test an Escort RS Cosworth and you might say "it's blisteringly quick" so I guess your perception changes over time, surely???
Maybe the same can be said for understeer, the levels that people like CH appraise cars is above and beyond anything most of us can really differentiate. Understeer is a great example, I had a Subaru STI8 and I thought it understeered like an absolutely b
d and was constantly moaning about it, a friend on mine whom is more gifted with his driving skills took it out and came back and said yes it does have a tendency to understeer, however when I took him out when we got back he said "I said a tendency to understeer, what you're doing is trying to defy the laws of physics".
Maybe the same can be said for understeer, the levels that people like CH appraise cars is above and beyond anything most of us can really differentiate. Understeer is a great example, I had a Subaru STI8 and I thought it understeered like an absolutely b
d and was constantly moaning about it, a friend on mine whom is more gifted with his driving skills took it out and came back and said yes it does have a tendency to understeer, however when I took him out when we got back he said "I said a tendency to understeer, what you're doing is trying to defy the laws of physics".I think that it may be a little naive to think that any journalist who gets close enough to Porsche to get a drive in a works car in the Nurburg 24 and the option to buy. 4.0RS can possibly be Objective. I have a lot of time for what Chris writes but given the above his view like much or probably everything that is written about any new car launch will be ultimately 'subjective'. Relationships like this in whatever aspect of life your chosen profession is make the world go round.
I had a team mate who I was identically paced with me but he got a lot more tv commentary that I did. Perhaps it was because his dad gave the commentator a drive in a 911RSR for a race or two? Didn't bother me at all. No point in getting pious about it. Its the way of things. Bloody good luck to both of them I say.
I'd read this or any other review on that basis. The difference being that actually Chris is one of the very few Journos out there who actually knows what he's talking about.
I had a team mate who I was identically paced with me but he got a lot more tv commentary that I did. Perhaps it was because his dad gave the commentator a drive in a 911RSR for a race or two? Didn't bother me at all. No point in getting pious about it. Its the way of things. Bloody good luck to both of them I say.
I'd read this or any other review on that basis. The difference being that actually Chris is one of the very few Journos out there who actually knows what he's talking about.
sidicks said:
What's you ownership experience of GT3s and when did you drive the latest version?
To qualify for you,I have owned and driven on road and track (frequently) almost the whole range Bar a 997 4.0ltr and obviously a 991 GT3, the most memorable of late being a 997 GT2 heavily modified producing 620bhp quite a beast it liked spinning its wheels at nearly ***mph!, I have recently had the use of a 991 C2S and a drive of a 991 Turbo.I'm know I'm old school but its just the way I am I just like to smell a bit of Porsche somewhere ,this was possible up to this new models launch.
We oldies will always go for nimble,simple and light weight as a preference the 991 is now a true GT a 993 or such feels so small and alive in comparison.
Gary11 said:
To qualify for you,I have owned and driven (frequently) almost the whole range Bar a 997 4.0ltr and obviously a 991 GT3, the most memorable of late being a 997 GT2 heavily modified producing 620bhp quite a beast it liked spinning its wheels at nearly ***mph!, I have recently had the use of a 991 C2S and a drive of a 991 Turbo.
I'm know I'm old school but its just the way I am I just like to smell a bit of Porsche somewhere ,this was possible up to this new models launch.
We oldies will always go for nimble,simple and light weight as a preference the 991 is now a true GT a 993 or such feels so small and alive in comparison.
Sorry, i still maintain that someone that has driven both cars is better placed to make a comparison than someone who hasn't!!I'm know I'm old school but its just the way I am I just like to smell a bit of Porsche somewhere ,this was possible up to this new models launch.
We oldies will always go for nimble,simple and light weight as a preference the 991 is now a true GT a 993 or such feels so small and alive in comparison.
Gary11 said:
Just an opinion regarding the road test on the new GT3 991 on youtube, I think its harsh and incorrect (whilst having no reliability data) to say this new engine will make you forget the Mezger unit,without a doubt the best engine Porsche has ever made (or will make),clearly Chris this is not so as the 991 RSR and CCup cars still use (as far as I know) the old Mezger unit so Porsche clearly don't view it at this stage as reliable and tuneable and have made their decision,I've also asked before how Homologation rules apply here? Also IMHO quoting previous reliability of engines as a benchmark is too a bit ambiguous given previous documented issues concerning reliability of the earlier versions of this engine (M96/7),that said I'm sure they have made twice as many and will sell twice as many,the GT3 is now moving IMO away from its roots and into volume.
Gary - it's Metzger not Mezger. PS On second thoughts - ignore that!
Edited by drmark on Thursday 13th June 13:32
NBTBRV8 said:
What I do find disingenuous about CH is that his story changes whenever they release a new model. In his review of the 997.2 he talks about how the 997.1 use to understeer and how they fixed it "it just doesn't" (anymore) was his quote at 2:40 and 3:54 when talking about the chassis. Yet in the new video he goes on to say how the 997 understeered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DWdH20Hmg
Could this not just be because his frame of reference has shifted?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45DWdH20Hmg
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