Discussion
Much talk of races being ruined and length of time behind safety cars. What are the solutions?
- I personally feel they are out for too long, but I obviously don't have the full picture trackside of the reasons why. (as a side note, could they not make Armco more modular so it is easier to replace small sections, the time delays to replace Armco is ridiculus).
- The three safety cars. Initially fine to halt cars on a long circuit, but why can't they just prior to restarting allow the 2 & 3 group to close up to the lead SC. Then one more lap behind the lead SC so no one has the advantage of being upto racing temps.
- Or when SC is declared everyone must hit a speed limit button so travel at the same speed until they all reach the only SC which has picked up the leader across the line. Or just leave it at everyone going around slowly at the same limited pace without SC. That way all the same gaps are maintained and if you need to pit you lose the same amount of time and just rejoin wherever it would put you.
No matter which way it is done though, someone will lose out, but at least with the above, the racing would only be improved by closing things up rather than a battle being broken up and racing ruined.
- I personally feel they are out for too long, but I obviously don't have the full picture trackside of the reasons why. (as a side note, could they not make Armco more modular so it is easier to replace small sections, the time delays to replace Armco is ridiculus).
- The three safety cars. Initially fine to halt cars on a long circuit, but why can't they just prior to restarting allow the 2 & 3 group to close up to the lead SC. Then one more lap behind the lead SC so no one has the advantage of being upto racing temps.
- Or when SC is declared everyone must hit a speed limit button so travel at the same speed until they all reach the only SC which has picked up the leader across the line. Or just leave it at everyone going around slowly at the same limited pace without SC. That way all the same gaps are maintained and if you need to pit you lose the same amount of time and just rejoin wherever it would put you.
No matter which way it is done though, someone will lose out, but at least with the above, the racing would only be improved by closing things up rather than a battle being broken up and racing ruined.
The speed limit button wouldnt work as there needs to be gaps between the cars so that marshals can get onto the track itself, to remove bodywork and gravel etc.
I think it works well currently, and I dont think there is a way to make armco replacement any better, generally the quicker it would be to replace the worse it would do its job.
In a race lasting 24 hours with over 50 cars going flat out its certain lots is going to go wrong, theres nothing that can be done about that!
I think it works well currently, and I dont think there is a way to make armco replacement any better, generally the quicker it would be to replace the worse it would do its job.
In a race lasting 24 hours with over 50 cars going flat out its certain lots is going to go wrong, theres nothing that can be done about that!
DS240 said:
- The three safety cars. Initially fine to halt cars on a long circuit, but why can't they just prior to restarting allow the 2 & 3 group to close up to the lead SC. Then one more lap behind the lead SC so no one has the advantage of being upto racing temps.
I think this is the only improvement that can be made. I presume arguments are made about the safety of having some cars running hard to catch up with another group running very slowly, issues with some drivers going full race pace immediately and being caught out by others still braking early, etc etc.Not sure how you could properly implement it. Telling a load of racing drivers "catch up to the other safety car" is going to result in a dozen different interpretations of the pace required, and I can easily see it causing more accidents.
McSam said:
Not sure how you could properly implement it. Telling a load of racing drivers "catch up to the other safety car" is going to result in a dozen different interpretations of the pace required, and I can easily see it causing more accidents.
Surely they could use safety cars B & C to safely increase the pace to catch up with the lead safety car? Race control know when the safety cars are coming in, so they should be able to do it.McSam said:
DS240 said:
- The three safety cars. Initially fine to halt cars on a long circuit, but why can't they just prior to restarting allow the 2 & 3 group to close up to the lead SC. Then one more lap behind the lead SC so no one has the advantage of being upto racing temps.
I think this is the only improvement that can be made. I presume arguments are made about the safety of having some cars running hard to catch up with another group running very slowly, issues with some drivers going full race pace immediately and being caught out by others still braking early, etc etc.Not sure how you could properly implement it. Telling a load of racing drivers "catch up to the other safety car" is going to result in a dozen different interpretations of the pace required, and I can easily see it causing more accidents.
Someone else mentioned having the gaps to allow work. Good point, but you could more than likely still control the local crash area to direct cars certain ways or still require cars to slow even further through the scene.
Output Flange said:
Surely they could use safety cars B & C to safely increase the pace to catch up with the lead safety car? Race control know when the safety cars are coming in, so they should be able to do it.
1. The safety car is already going nearly as fast as it can with the race cars struggling to go slow enough behind it – the safety car can’t go much faster2. Even if it could go faster, the gap of 1/3 of a lap is going to take quite some time to close, unless the A group was slowed down even further which causes its own problems, low tyre/brake temps etc
eastsider said:
1. The safety car is already going nearly as fast as it can with the race cars struggling to go slow enough behind it – the safety car can’t go much faster
2. Even if it could go faster, the gap of 1/3 of a lap is going to take quite some time to close, unless the A group was slowed down even further which causes its owne problems, low tyre/brake tmps etc
I don't disagree, but a combination of car A slowing a bit, and cars B and C speeding up as much as they can would help, with another lap behind just the one car once the tail has caught up so that everyone is at the same temps.2. Even if it could go faster, the gap of 1/3 of a lap is going to take quite some time to close, unless the A group was slowed down even further which causes its owne problems, low tyre/brake tmps etc
I'd be surprised if 3 short gaps is better than 1 big gap for the marshals working, but I don't know.
DS240 said:
- Or when SC is declared everyone must hit a speed limit button so travel at the same speed until they all reach the only SC which has picked up the leader across the line. Or just leave it at everyone going around slowly at the same limited pace without SC. That way all the same gaps are maintained and if you need to pit you lose the same amount of time and just rejoin wherever it would
That would be a Code 60 as used in the Dubai 24. It works so I don't know why they don't use it. eastsider said:
Output Flange said:
Surely they could use safety cars B & C to safely increase the pace to catch up with the lead safety car? Race control know when the safety cars are coming in, so they should be able to do it.
1. The safety car is already going nearly as fast as it can with the race cars struggling to go slow enough behind it – the safety car can’t go much faster2. Even if it could go faster, the gap of 1/3 of a lap is going to take quite some time to close, unless the A group was slowed down even further which causes its own problems, low tyre/brake temps etc
The 2&3rd safety cars pull off so they don't need to go faster.
Cars speed up, not allowed to overtake. No reason to go silly, but they should easily catch up the lead pack, especially if they are slowed also.
Catch up pack and they do one more lap to rebalance temps, then all set off.
There just always seems someone loses out and races are ruined, at least this way it improves the show. But if you were just about to lap 2nd place you could be unhappy to have effectively lost that lead. But at least close battles wouldn't be destroyed.
5hrs (or similar) of safety car this year just seems crazy.
Edited by DS240 on Tuesday 25th June 12:08
DS240 said:
They would have no benefit going racing speeds, just fast enough to catch as once all have caught the lead group there would be another controlled lap. There would be no incentive to go 'all out' and they could not overtake.
Not saying it would benefit them - just that once you tell them to speed up, some are going to go a lot harder than others (even without accounting for the massive difference of pace in the cars), so incidents do seem likely if you release them.Output Flange said:
Surely they could use safety cars B & C to safely increase the pace to catch up with the lead safety car? Race control know when the safety cars are coming in, so they should be able to do it.
That'd work nicely, actually. Bit of a pain for them getting the safety cars back in their proper positions at Mulsanne/Arnage/Pits, but I'm sure it'd be doable.The safety cars can go much faster, they run at 80mph (in fact their seven-minute lap times suggest a 72mph average, which makes sense), and it wouldn't be a stretch at all for them to run quick enough to catch the other group within two laps. You could then release them straight away as the catching cars would still have been running slow and controlled so would have little temperature advantage.
I don't believe race control could ever see fit to bring two safety cars in and leave one out. You can't have two-thirds or potentially even more of the field uncontrolled while the rest sits behind the safety car.
I think the ideal solution is, when green flag is two laps away, the safety car which has the leader drops to 60mph, and the other two go to 100mph or more. You'll catch within a lap or so, and happy days.
Though it's not impossible that race control actually like the field separated, and are trying to avoid a P1 having to carve through the entire field of GTEs if it happens to be at the back of the train..
t1grm said:
Most of the safety car delays seemed to be centered around armco repair. Is it just me or is this new? I don't recall safety cars being out for an hour or more after a car has been removed to repair the armco 4-5 years ago.
on eurosport they were saying it has beat all previous for time spent behind the saftey car, but TBH cant find anything on it. Steve57 said:
t1grm said:
Most of the safety car delays seemed to be centered around armco repair. Is it just me or is this new? I don't recall safety cars being out for an hour or more after a car has been removed to repair the armco 4-5 years ago.
on eurosport they were saying it has beat all previous for time spent behind the saftey car, but TBH cant find anything on it. Edit: 12 safety cars totalling 5 hours 27 minutes according to this:
http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFichiers/1/1/ressou...
Edited by t1grm on Tuesday 25th June 14:14
The problem about bringing the whole train together under one safety car, however it is done is that you will get a horribly mixed field. They always say that yellow creates yellow - and I think we saw this a couple of times at this year's race. Can you imagine the potential carnage if two or three racing P1s were at the back of the train?
I think it's testament to the quality of the racing in recent years that a SC 1.30 min penalty has meant so much to so many teams. I also believe that the final safety car this year took away the potential of a barnstorming finish in at least two of the four categories.
Perhaps the view might be that the danger zone, where people are working, has a rigorously applied speed limit - make it easy and call it on the pit lane limiter. But the rest of the track is open racing. It should be easy enough to show a countdown to the zone through successive marshal points. Telemetry would show quickly enough if people were not observing those rules.
I also think that RLM had it right when they suggested that SC were the only option when drivers didn't respect the yellow flags... start punishing that properly and teams would come into line quickly enough. Perhaps a two minute stop/go? Once they got that aspect of race control back in line, there would be a diminished need for as many SC periods.
I think it's testament to the quality of the racing in recent years that a SC 1.30 min penalty has meant so much to so many teams. I also believe that the final safety car this year took away the potential of a barnstorming finish in at least two of the four categories.
Perhaps the view might be that the danger zone, where people are working, has a rigorously applied speed limit - make it easy and call it on the pit lane limiter. But the rest of the track is open racing. It should be easy enough to show a countdown to the zone through successive marshal points. Telemetry would show quickly enough if people were not observing those rules.
I also think that RLM had it right when they suggested that SC were the only option when drivers didn't respect the yellow flags... start punishing that properly and teams would come into line quickly enough. Perhaps a two minute stop/go? Once they got that aspect of race control back in line, there would be a diminished need for as many SC periods.
I'm not sure there is a better solution than the 3 safety cars.
1. 3 safety cars
+ Slows cars down more quickly than a single car.
+ Good gaps for marshals to work in.
- Can put 90 seconds between 2 cars that were only 10 seconds apart.
2. 3 -> 1 safety cars
+ Closes everyone up before the restart.
- Means the car about to lap the one behind loses hours worth of advantage.
- you don't just have 15 laps behind the safety car while repairs are made, you now have an additional 2-3 laps while everyone from SC3 catches up to the train behind SC1.
4. Speed limiter button
+ Keeps the relative race positions.
- No good clear blocks of clear track for the marshals.
1. 3 safety cars
+ Slows cars down more quickly than a single car.
+ Good gaps for marshals to work in.
- Can put 90 seconds between 2 cars that were only 10 seconds apart.
2. 3 -> 1 safety cars
+ Closes everyone up before the restart.
- Means the car about to lap the one behind loses hours worth of advantage.
- you don't just have 15 laps behind the safety car while repairs are made, you now have an additional 2-3 laps while everyone from SC3 catches up to the train behind SC1.
4. Speed limiter button
+ Keeps the relative race positions.
- No good clear blocks of clear track for the marshals.
Pilgrim20vt said:
Lots of good sense
Agree with you here. I think I'm being quite closed on potential solutions because I know making racing drivers behave is extremely difficult, but if you had successive marshal posts with a 3-2-1-"pit limiter now" series of boards, that could work. You would also want to tell the cars which side of the circuit to drive on through the limiter area.I can see it causing some issues for the first couple of instances, but surely drivers could start to work with it eventually. The problem is that marshals would be deprived of the clear two minutes they currently get behind each safety car, and even a car running at pit limit is still bloody dangerous while you're working.
McS
Yup, I would never want to suggest something that was dangerous to the marshals. But when they are working on the armco to the side there might be the ability for the race to carry on around the rest of the circuit. I am just rather taken by a solution that holds both positions and relative position and doesn't penalise people too much.
The SC should always come out when the marshals have to work predominantly on track.
Yup, I would never want to suggest something that was dangerous to the marshals. But when they are working on the armco to the side there might be the ability for the race to carry on around the rest of the circuit. I am just rather taken by a solution that holds both positions and relative position and doesn't penalise people too much.
The SC should always come out when the marshals have to work predominantly on track.
I'm much the same. I think for perhaps half of the incidents, you could manage fine by slowing the cars right down and keeping them to one side. Take the #7 Toyota going off at Porsche Curves - marshals don't need to be anywhere near the circuit, they just need to not have any cars spearing off towards them, so slow and driver's-right would be fine there. Probably ditto for most barrier repairs.
I think it's only if there's a major amount of wreckage on the track that they'd need a proper safety car, but I do wonder whether the ACO would be prepared to have two sets of controlled running rules. It's complicated enough as it is, etc etc..
I think it's only if there's a major amount of wreckage on the track that they'd need a proper safety car, but I do wonder whether the ACO would be prepared to have two sets of controlled running rules. It's complicated enough as it is, etc etc..
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