Pharewell to the Phantom
Discussion
After 40 years Germany says goodbye to the F-4F Phantom as it's last squadron moves over the the Eurofighter.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-...
Considering the European frontline with the old Soviet bloc (or should that be phrontline) of Germany and it's strong economic position they held on to them for a lot longer than we did. Surprised to read South Korea and Japan still use them and I don't know where Iran would get spares for there's.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-...
Considering the European frontline with the old Soviet bloc (or should that be phrontline) of Germany and it's strong economic position they held on to them for a lot longer than we did. Surprised to read South Korea and Japan still use them and I don't know where Iran would get spares for there's.
Must've been over twenty years ago now, but I vividly remember a visit to the Idaho ANG at Boise. Fortunate to be on the ramp as they started, taxied and took off, awesome 
got some photos somewhere if anyone wants to see them?
And another memory from an airshow at Boscombe Down, end of the day walking back to the car along the empty crowd line when four RAF Phantoms departed, we just happened to have stopped where the first aircraft got airborne, folded the gear and proceeded to stay just above the runway, the following aircraft all seemed to get airborne a bit earlier but still stayed low level until the end of the runway
got some photos somewhere if anyone wants to see them?And another memory from an airshow at Boscombe Down, end of the day walking back to the car along the empty crowd line when four RAF Phantoms departed, we just happened to have stopped where the first aircraft got airborne, folded the gear and proceeded to stay just above the runway, the following aircraft all seemed to get airborne a bit earlier but still stayed low level until the end of the runway
Last time I saw a phantom in the air was Farnborough 2000', I was working there and visited a few days prior to collect my security pass.
That year the display Eurofighter supplied by the Luftwaffe and he was escorted all to pretty much ground level by a phantom, overwhelming memory was the amount of s
t being pumped out of the back, you saw the smoke long before the aircraft!
That year the display Eurofighter supplied by the Luftwaffe and he was escorted all to pretty much ground level by a phantom, overwhelming memory was the amount of s
t being pumped out of the back, you saw the smoke long before the aircraft!I used to have a huge colour photograph of a Phantom back in the seventies, as well as a Vulcan, Lightning, and a couple of others. My dad 'acquired' them from work when he was at RAF Cosford. I was under strict orders not to give them away or let anybody have one, so maybe they weren't supposed to leave Cosford.....
I sure wish I still had them though, as they were beautiful pictures.
I sure wish I still had them though, as they were beautiful pictures.
Just looking at the German phantoms; does anybody know what the Luftwaffe's plans were if/when Germany was overran by massed soviet armour ?
Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
si-h said:
Just looking at the German phantoms; does anybody know what the Luftwaffe's plans were if/when Germany was overran by massed soviet armour ?
Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
The general consensus of opinion is if WWIII had kicked off it would have gone very Nuclear very quickly so the whole 'spares & repairs' question is fairly moot.Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0708821502
Dr Jekyll said:
Are Iran still flying their F14s? They certainly kept them going for a long time without US support despite there being no other operator outside the US.
They're grounded AIUI. I think that shows why the Phantom is still going in a lot of places - it's still simple enough that a country can cobble together spares to keep them running. The F-14 is much more complex in comparison.Tango13 said:
si-h said:
Just looking at the German phantoms; does anybody know what the Luftwaffe's plans were if/when Germany was overran by massed soviet armour ?
Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
The general consensus of opinion is if WWIII had kicked off it would have gone very Nuclear very quickly so the whole 'spares & repairs' question is fairly moot.Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Tango13 said:
si-h said:
Just looking at the German phantoms; does anybody know what the Luftwaffe's plans were if/when Germany was overran by massed soviet armour ?
Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
The general consensus of opinion is if WWIII had kicked off it would have gone very Nuclear very quickly so the whole 'spares & repairs' question is fairly moot.Was it a case of just leg it to the UK ?
Does anybody know of any official NATO distribution or plans for specific RAF bases to accept NATO aircraft ?
Were spares and equipment for different types of NATO aircraft to be sent in advance ?
Any thought ?
http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-B...
Get a copy of the book in the link, scary doesn't even come close, think terrifying and you're getting warm.
If the Cold war had turned properly hot the good news is that the nukes would've killed off the residue from the bio weapons, the bad news is no f
ker would've been alive to reap the benefits of a bio weapon free environment.On a slightly more cheerful note it wasn't until the A-10 Thunderbolt II that major parts of airframes became readily interchangeable. Most airframes including the F-4 were 'fitted' together so major parts from one airframe wouldn't automatically fit another airframe.
The A-10 however was built to a 'tolerence' not a 'fit' and wherever possible things like rudders and flaps were not 'handed' and would fit on either the port or starboard side of the airframe. The F-4 being much older didn't benefit from this so battle damage could render an aircraft unflyable for the wont of a simple part.
Alex Henshaw talks how some Spitfires needed lots of work to get them 'flyable' in his book 'Sigh For a Merlin' it's also mentioned in Vulcan 607 about how one Vulcan simply flew 'orrible'
Tango13 said:
Bearing in mind the sheer number of tactical nukes that the Warsaw Pact would've been expected to be thowing about at the slightest hint of impairment of their advance after their chemical/biological offensive do you really think any number of 'dispersal' airfields would've been of any use?
It's a moot point and one we can argue until the cows come home. Personally I do not believe that WARPAC would have gone nuclear, even tactically so, that early given the NATO Doctrine of Forward Defense and its development from the Tripwire ideas.However, had they gone chemical then it is very likely that we would have responded with Nuclear Weapons.
Having said that, WARPAC capability to 'Survive to Fight' in a chemical environment was significantly inferior to ours and they would have lost a lot of their own forces (not that that would have worried the Kremlin).
More worryingly would have been the Civilian and animal casualties that would have lain rotting across the entirety of Northern Germany, with associated disease hazards.
Tango13 said:
http://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-B...
Get a copy of the book in the link, scary doesn't even come close, think terrifying and you're getting warm.
I trained in Microbiology and Biochemistry prior to joining the Service so I am quite well aware of the Soviet Chemical and Biological capabilities. I'm also aware of their limitations.Get a copy of the book in the link, scary doesn't even come close, think terrifying and you're getting warm.
Tango13 said:
On a slightly more cheerful note it wasn't until the A-10 Thunderbolt II that major parts of airframes became readily interchangeable. Most airframes including the F-4 were 'fitted' together so major parts from one airframe wouldn't automatically fit another airframe.
To an extent that is true, but not totally so. My partner is an ex F4 engineer and your comment about the lack of interchangeability on that a/c has made him smile. 
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Sunday 30th June 20:08
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
It's a moot point and one we can argue until the cows come home. Personally I do not believe that WARPAC would have gone nuclear, even tactically so, that early given the NATO Doctrine of Forward Defense and its development from the Tripwire ideas.
However, had they gone chemical then it is very likely that we would have responded with Nuclear Weapons.
Having said that, WARPAC capability to 'Survive to Fight' in a chemical environment was significantly inferior to ours and they would have lost a lot of their own forces (not that that would have worried the Kremlin).
More worryingly would have been the Civilian and animal casualties that would have lain rotting across the entirety of Northern Germany, with associated disease hazards.
I'm actually very glad it's a moot point, the biggest threat to world peace in the early '80's wasn't the Warsaw Pact, yes they were very paranoid and not in a good Black Sabbeth way but the real problem was the good ol' US of A trying to re-enact the last reel of every John Wayne movie ever made to quote F Forsyth.However, had they gone chemical then it is very likely that we would have responded with Nuclear Weapons.
Having said that, WARPAC capability to 'Survive to Fight' in a chemical environment was significantly inferior to ours and they would have lost a lot of their own forces (not that that would have worried the Kremlin).
More worryingly would have been the Civilian and animal casualties that would have lain rotting across the entirety of Northern Germany, with associated disease hazards.
Able Archer 83 wasn't the smartest move NATO ever made.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I trained in Microbiology and Biochemistry prior to joining the Service so I am quite well aware of the Soviet Chemical and Biological capabilities. I'm also aware of their limitations.
If you have any interest in the subject then follow the link, whilst I have no doubt you know what you're talking about, you are talking about the subject from a Western point of view with Western morals and scruples. Morals and scruples were not permitted in the USSR, there was a tragic incident with the Marburg virus and a doctor which resulted in a devastatingly more efeective strain of the virus being weaponised.As for their work on Anthrax, Boris Yeltsin has a few hundred deaths on his conscious...
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
To an extent that is true, but not totally so. My partner is an ex F4 engineerfitter and your comment about the lack of interchangeability on that a/c has made him smile.
Fixed that for you. Good manners on my part mean I won't reply further.
Mojocvh said:
Well this was a quite interesting thread until the EGO took over....
I could burble on about F4's at the end of their life for ages having been there and done that but WGAF...
If you love the Phantom try and get a copy of this...I could burble on about F4's at the end of their life for ages having been there and done that but WGAF...
http://www.amazon.com/Scream-Eagles-Dramatic-Accou...
How to dogfight an inteceptor and create a legend while you're at it...
Tango13 said:
Mojocvh said:
Well this was a quite interesting thread until the EGO took over....
I could burble on about F4's at the end of their life for ages having been there and done that but WGAF...
If you love the Phantom try and get a copy of this...I could burble on about F4's at the end of their life for ages having been there and done that but WGAF...
http://www.amazon.com/Scream-Eagles-Dramatic-Accou...
How to dogfight an inteceptor and create a legend while you're at it...
Living proof that s
t can Fly. as we sung so many times into the wee sma hours and mornings.
As for top gun, well it ran it's course, but the USAF took notice and in the end ran programs that surpassed it.
Edited by Mojocvh on Sunday 30th June 22:09
Thanks for the reply to my question folks.
I suspect the ex-service folk always know a lot more than they let on........
A question.
During the 70's-80's, how competent do they think our air defences were against a full on attack over the North Sea. Upon reflection, and knowing their kit, would our lot have been snotted by the Russki's ??
( Did the glossy posters in my cadet squadron lie ?)
I suspect the ex-service folk always know a lot more than they let on........
A question.
During the 70's-80's, how competent do they think our air defences were against a full on attack over the North Sea. Upon reflection, and knowing their kit, would our lot have been snotted by the Russki's ??
( Did the glossy posters in my cadet squadron lie ?)
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