Non-starter :-(

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Sorry to start another "non-starting" thread, but I can't find the last one.

This morning I was greeted with deafening silence. Symptoms are:

• Fuel pump primes, but nothing when I try to start
• No clicks or other noises
• Nothing from the starter

I tried slapping top and bottom of the passenger side of the dash, but I'm not sure how hard to hit it and precisely where. It didn't make any difference; maybe I need to hit it harder?

I didn't think of trying the immobilser override key, but I suspect that wouldn't have worked because I think the fuel pump is evidence that the immobiliser is already trying to let me start the car.

So... is this time for a new immobiliser? Or could it be the ignition switch? Or the starter solenoid? Or the starter?

Is there anything I can rule out?

Typical that this happens just before a beautiful weekend.

[K4TRV]

If fuel pump primes, it is not the immobliser, IMHO

Ignition switch or Starter solenoid? No click, then simple 12v to solenoid is either missing or solenoid open circuit.

Reckon you might need a new starter & solenoid.

Final check (But unlikely) - switch on head lights and try starter again. Do headlights dim - battery fooked!

HTHs?

Trev

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

I thought the immobiliser does two things, and there was a thread a week or two ago about it but I can't find it. IIRC it's still possible for a dud immobiliser to allow the fuel pump to prime but not energise the starter, but I'm not certain on that.

[K4TRV]

I follow the simple logic that if pump primes, the immobliser has worked? Older cars had 3-circuits "immoblised" (fuel gauge, pump and starter solenoid, usually) - unsure of you're newer (1999?) example.

What "else" doesn't work? Horn, lights etc?

You could disconnect & reconnect battery to reset everything - not a cure?

Not the easiest way, but putting 12v on solenoid would confirm that element?

Tricky little problem?

T

[ChimpOnGas]

K4TRV said:

If fuel pump primes, it is not the immobliser, IMHO

Ignition switch or Starter solenoid? No click, then simple 12v to solenoid is either missing or solenoid open circuit.

Reckon you might need a new starter & solenoid.

Final check (But unlikely) - switch on head lights and try starter again. Do headlights dim - battery fooked!

HTHs?

Trev

Actually, and purely in the interest of assisting the OP in solving his starting problem I have to strongly disagree with the above statement from K4TRV.

In truth the starting problem as described is indeed likely to be the immobiliser, or more specifically a relay inside it.

The immobiliser controls the feed to the fuel pump, but it also controls the feed to the starter solenoid.

These two separate circuits are completed via two separate relays housed inside the immobiliser unit.

Therefore the fuel pump circuit can be perfectly operational, while the starter solenoid circuit has failed.

Many people experiencing the starting problem hear the buzz of the fuel pump and assume the immobiliser is functioning correctly, this is common assumption leading to the unnecessary replacement of starter motors & installation of hot start kits.

The reality is the failure to start is likely to be because the points on the immobiliser relay controlling starter solenoid are stuck, heavily pitted or plain burnt.

However saying this & assumption being the mother of all f**k ups, I suggest the OP uses a test meter to prove where the fault is before jumping to conclusions.

But given the immobiliser's reputation for causing exactly the starting fault described by the OP, the immobiliser is definitely a good place to start testing.

Indeed the immobiliser fault seems to be the most common reason for non-starting Chimaera's.

If it is the relay inside the immobiliser you might be excused for thinking it's just a simple case of replacing that faulty relay, sadly it's not that simple.

The offending relay is potted deep inside the immobiliser unit making replacement difficult.

So you might think the ideal solution is to replace the complete immobiliser, frustratingly replacement of just the immobiliser unit can end up as a complete new alarm system.

This is because the alarm & immobiliser units are uniquely paired to each other, just fitting an un-paired replacement immobiliser wont work with your existing alarm unit, the two units must be configured to talk to each other.

A complete new system fitted correctly by someone that knows what they're doing is undoubtedly the best solution, but it can end up being quite costly.

However there is a cheaper "get you back on the road" solution; simply bypass the immobiliser on the problematic starter circuit

The car will remain protected as the fuel pump circuit is still running through the immobiliser, all it means is the car will crank on the key without disengaging the immobiliser.

But without fuel the car wont start, until that is you hit the alarm fob & wake up the fuel pump.

Like I say, dont just assume it's immobiliser, you must start by using a test meter to prove where the fault truly is.

Assumption is definitely the mother of all f**k ups

[K4TRV]

ChimpOnGas said:

K4TRV said:

If fuel pump primes, it is not the immobliser, IMHO

Ignition switch or Starter solenoid? No click, then simple 12v to solenoid is either missing or solenoid open circuit.

Reckon you might need a new starter & solenoid.

Final check (But unlikely) - switch on head lights and try starter again. Do headlights dim - battery fooked!

HTHs?

Trev

Actually, and purely in the interest of assisting the OP in solving his starting problem I have to strongly disagree with the above statement from K4TRV.

In truth the starting problem as described is indeed likely to be the immobiliser, or more specifically a relay inside it.

The immobiliser controls the feed to the fuel pump, but it also controls the feed to the starter solenoid.

These two separate circuits are completed via two separate relays housed inside the immobiliser unit.

Therefore the fuel pump circuit can be perfectly operational, while the starter solenoid circuit has failed.

Many people experiencing the starting problem hear the buzz of the fuel pump and assume the immobiliser is functioning correctly, this is common assumption leading to the unnecessary replacement of starter motors & installation of hot start kits.

The reality is the failure to start is likely to be because the points on the immobiliser relay controlling starter solenoid are stuck, heavily pitted or plain burnt.

However saying this & assumption being the mother of all f**k ups, I suggest the OP uses a test meter to prove where the fault is before jumping to conclusions.

But given the immobiliser's reputation for causing exactly the starting fault described by the OP, the immobiliser is definitely a good place to start testing.

Indeed the immobiliser fault seems to be the most common reason for non-starting Chimaera's.

If it is the relay inside the immobiliser you might be excused for thinking it's just a simple case of replacing that faulty relay, sadly it's not that simple.

The offending relay is potted deep inside the immobiliser unit making replacement difficult.

So you might think the ideal solution is to replace the complete immobiliser, frustratingly replacement of just the immobiliser unit can end up as a complete new alarm system.

This is because the alarm & immobiliser units are uniquely paired to each other, just fitting an un-paired replacement immobiliser wont work with your existing alarm unit, the two units must be configured to talk to each other.

A complete new system fitted correctly by someone that knows what they're doing is undoubtedly the best solution, but it can end up being quite costly.

However there is a cheaper "get you back on the road" solution; simply bypass the immobiliser on the problematic starter circuit

The car will remain protected as the fuel pump circuit is still running through the immobiliser, all it means is the car will crank on the key without disengaging the immobiliser.

But without fuel the car wont start, until that is you hit the alarm fob & wake up the fuel pump.

Like I say, dont just assume it's immobiliser, you must start by using a test meter to prove where the fault truly is.

Assumption is definitely the mother of all f**k ups

Can't disagree - just trying to assist OP and added "IMHO" - never pulled the immobilser apart so hence suggesting putting 12v on solenoid??

Deffo don't assume - get the test meter out!

T

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Thanks guys!

Having thought about this, I'm tempted to just ring up Str8Six and ask them to collect it because there are now three things that need attention:

• Non-starting
• U/S aircon (green oily residue on side of heat exchanger)
• MOT test due

Since at least the second two of those are things I can't do myself, I'm thinking I might as well kill all three birds with one stone.

Could be tricky manoeuvring it off a soft gravel driveway, so hopefully we can hot-wire the starter solenoid and get the engine going. As it happens I'd booked the MOT for Monday and taken a day off, so with luck Str8Six might be able to pick up that day.

[EGB]

In 3rd gear rock car forward with ignition OFF!and key OUT. This may unstick the starter and solenoid if stuck. Then try to restart as normal.

Edited by EGB on Thursday 4th July 12:08

[Julesprivate]

ChimpOnGas said:

But given the immobiliser's reputation for causing exactly the starting fault described by the OP, the immobiliser is definitely a good place to start testing.

Indeed the immobiliser fault seems to be the most common reason for non-starting Chimaera's.

That's potentially the only part of that post I tend to disagree with. I'd suggest the most common reason is the simple starter motor rather than the immobiliser - although I totally agree that the immobiliser is a PITA and not really up to the job.

I know the immobiliser is mentioned in most of the non-starting threads and I know it's weak/badly implemented but I'm pretty sure that the majority of threads (certainly lately) seem to conclude with a failed starter/solenoid.... and that's likely to be because it's too damn close to the manifolds..

I totally agree that peculation/assumption won't help (other than to prvide advice on where to start fault finding) and I'd still suggest that 12V to the starter solenoid (small wire) would give a good indication of where the fault lies.

It could be the ignition switch too... although that's my third least likely candidate.

All IMHO too..

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

EGB said:

In 3rd gear rock car forward with ignition OFF!and key OUT. This may unstick the starter and solenoid if stuck. Then try to restart as normal.

^^ Good tip, thanks!


Edited to add:

A heat-related failure is entirely plausible, because the last time I drove it was on Sunday when it was hot - and I got stuck in numerous traffic jams. The under-bonnet temperature would have gone quite high.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 4th July 12:31

[EGB]

Best done with driver in seat. For obvious safety reasons.

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

EGB said:

In 3rd gear rock car forward with ignition OFF!and key OUT. This may unstick the starter and solenoid if stuck. Then try to restart as normal.

^^ Good tip, thanks!


Edited to add:

A heat-related failure is entirely plausible, because the last time I drove it was on Sunday when it was hot - and I got stuck in numerous traffic jams. The under-bonnet temperature would have gone quite high.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 4th July 12:31

[pac1uk]

Dr Mike Oxgreen did you find your starter problem?

Mine Chim suffered the exact same symptoms. After taking car for a spin in the lovely hot weather, when I returned and left it on the drive for a few hours. Wouldn't start when I was going to put it in the garage.

However leaving it a few minutes and trying again a few times. It started.


Thanks.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

^^ That sounds like the classic "hot start" problem. There is some debate about the solution to this: you can either install the "hot start" mod (which involves a relay to take the load off the starter relay in the immobiliser, if I understand correctly), or you can replace the starter wiring for thicker gauge.

My issue was different: for me, it was a consistent problem that wasn't dependent on temperature.

My car was picked up by Str8Six on Friday. This was the easiest solution, given that I've been busy this weekend and there are other things that they can do at the same time - so I decided not to bother investigating it myself.

I expect they'll diagnose the starting issue first, so I'll report back when I know anything more.

[BountyHunter]

i had starting issues on mine which turned out to be the relay

however in fitting it i managed to dislodge one small black wire that goes to a relay like box (except its almost like a relay that can take another relay in the top of it) - that loose wire meant that the car simply didnt turn over.

it was earthing something, and once I reconnected it was job done

[WOO5IE]

EGB said:

Hi All

I had exactly this yesterday and the cure was a gentle rock in third gear so it was just a sticking starter solonoid. I did suspect the imobiliser so I did take the dash top off ,. I coulnt fing the M26 imobilser so does anyone know where it is located. Its a 2000 model.

It has always started very for the last 6 years.

[phazed]

WOO5IE said:

Hi All

I had exactly this yesterday and the cure was a gentle rock in third gear so it was just a sticking starter solonoid. I did suspect the imobiliser so I did take the dash top off ,. I coulnt fing the M26 imobilser so does anyone know where it is located. Its a 2000 model.

It has always started very for the last 6 years.

In my 95 model, unscrew 2 PK screws that retain the top of the elasticated pocket, the pocket hinges down and it's there!

[pb450]

Any feedback from OP after car collection on Monday?

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

I've just spoken to Chas at Str8Six, and there's nothing to report yet - they'll start looking at it tomorrow.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

I've just spoken to Str8Six for an update, and it's bloody typical that the car has been starting perfectly for them! They are going to take off the hot-start mod and re-do it, in case that is causing an issue - but otherwise they've got nothing to go on. D'oh!

[EGB]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

I've just spoken to Str8Six for an update, and it's bloody typical that the car has been starting perfectly for them! They are going to take off the hot-start mod and re-do it, in case that is causing an issue - but otherwise they've got nothing to go on. D'oh!

David.
My experience hope/may help.
1. My fuel pump primes
2. Starter spins.
3. Failed to start.

Over the last 12 months it has been progressively slower to start on the ignition.
A week ago after a good run the previous day. It failed to start after a lot of whirrrring on starter. NO sparks on Gunson spark tester. Useful 'old school' tool.

4. Changed ignition ECU relay (black socket) Still no start.
5. Checked the messy wires on the MOD-WISE hot start and found one thick red wire to the white block connector had pulled out and the other thin (very, very thin) red wire to same white block was only connected by a few threads. Re-connected the thick red wire.
6. Turned ignition key. Eureka! it started.

7. I pulled the fuse out of the hot start believing the red wire disconnect was the problem in 5. Eureka again, it started, with fuse out!!. The helpful guys at MOD-WISE hot start can explain this mystery. I think it's David Beer at Mod wise.
8. Beefed up the solder on the very thin red and re-connected to white block. This block connects up to the split louped black. See Mod Wise instructions.

Happy ending. Now starts with little delay and on the "Old School" Gunson spark tester on NO 2 cylinder, the spark length is at least 15mm. Eureka! Methinks, a + 0.8mm gap on a NGK B7ECS plug is no problem

Trust you have a happy ending. Keep us informed.

Edited by EGB on Wednesday 17th July 16:11