Cayman S - Catalytic converters possibly knackered
Discussion
So here's the situation, and a bit of a long back story, so sorry for the long post.
I have not long come back from a big (2.5k miles) Euro trip in my Cayman. Whilst on the trip, at the end of a long day of driving (~8 hours driving time but not all in one go) and after being sat in a slow moving traffic jam for about an hour in 30 degree heat, the check engine light came on. Car was driving fine so nursed it the final mile to where we were staying and got Porsche Assist to pick it up the next morning.
It was taken to OPC Munich who said it could be a number of things - MAF sensor, Lambda sensors or the primary Catalytic converters. At first they were sure it was the MAF, but later convinced themselves it was the cats. Either way they would need to hold onto the car for several days to get parts as they close over the weekend, which did not fit well with our trip plans. To check that it wasn't just the car throwing a hissy fit, they reset the warning and drove it round the car park for a while. It didn't come back on so they said go away and drive the car that day, and if the light comes back on drop it in. The light didn't come back on so I thought all was ok. Then 2 days later, again after being stuck in slow moving traffic, the light came back.
I dropped the car in to Zurich, and they said the cats had burned out. They advised driving it for the rest of the trip and sorting it back in the UK, as he advised that for his customers he would put in a good will plea with Porsche, but Porsche Switzerland would only do that for Swiss imported cars, hence the advice to drive it home to the UK. They assured me, after I asked for confirmation from the engineer, that it was fine to drive and that it would not do any damage to the rest of the car, just that its emissions would be a bit higher than normal. For info, the car is still running fine, no lumpiness or missfires.
I called Martin at OPC Leicester, who said they would be surprised if it was the Cats, as they don't change many, but they were not confident that Porsche GB would offer anything. I have it booked in with them tomorrow to get it inspected, so I will find out for sure then. I would like to get some info beforehand though, to arm myself with.
So the question is, is it normal for the cats to burn out on a 2006 Cayman S after 7 years and 69k miles? This seems very premature to me.
If it is the cats, what are my options?
I have a full OPC service history (with the most recent service being a major one a week before I left for my trip), and official extended warranty, but ridiculously (IMO), the cats are not covered by this and so far it hasn't been worth the paper it is printed on - not covering anything that has needed doing as it is all deemed wear and tear (exhaust gaskets, broken key, broken rear suspension springs, dead battery). Given this, is there much chance of Porsche GB offering a good will contribution? Has anyone on here had any luck with this?
Warranty runs until the end of the year. If PGB don't offer anything I am considering writing off what is remaining on it and going independent with some sports cats and a sports exhaust, as that looks like it will be considerably cheaper (about half the price, if the European prices for OEM cats that I was quoted are anything to go by), and I will have very little reason, or desire, to keep it in the OPC network.
What could cause the cats to burn out so early? Is there anything I should get the OPC to check for as possible causes - excess burnt oil, boroscope, etc?
If it is the cats, would you expect the light to have come back on immediately after they cleared it or is it normal that it could go 2 long driving days and several hundreds of miles before appearing again?
Does the official sports exhaust kit include primary cats? Is fitting this an option rather than just replacing like for like? At least this would feel like I am gaining something and make parting with such a huge sum of money easier to take.
I should also add that the car passed its MOT just a month before the trip, so emissions were obviously fine then.
Once again, apologies for the long post and thanks in advance for any advice you can give, especially in regards to the possible causes.
I have not long come back from a big (2.5k miles) Euro trip in my Cayman. Whilst on the trip, at the end of a long day of driving (~8 hours driving time but not all in one go) and after being sat in a slow moving traffic jam for about an hour in 30 degree heat, the check engine light came on. Car was driving fine so nursed it the final mile to where we were staying and got Porsche Assist to pick it up the next morning.
It was taken to OPC Munich who said it could be a number of things - MAF sensor, Lambda sensors or the primary Catalytic converters. At first they were sure it was the MAF, but later convinced themselves it was the cats. Either way they would need to hold onto the car for several days to get parts as they close over the weekend, which did not fit well with our trip plans. To check that it wasn't just the car throwing a hissy fit, they reset the warning and drove it round the car park for a while. It didn't come back on so they said go away and drive the car that day, and if the light comes back on drop it in. The light didn't come back on so I thought all was ok. Then 2 days later, again after being stuck in slow moving traffic, the light came back.
I dropped the car in to Zurich, and they said the cats had burned out. They advised driving it for the rest of the trip and sorting it back in the UK, as he advised that for his customers he would put in a good will plea with Porsche, but Porsche Switzerland would only do that for Swiss imported cars, hence the advice to drive it home to the UK. They assured me, after I asked for confirmation from the engineer, that it was fine to drive and that it would not do any damage to the rest of the car, just that its emissions would be a bit higher than normal. For info, the car is still running fine, no lumpiness or missfires.
I called Martin at OPC Leicester, who said they would be surprised if it was the Cats, as they don't change many, but they were not confident that Porsche GB would offer anything. I have it booked in with them tomorrow to get it inspected, so I will find out for sure then. I would like to get some info beforehand though, to arm myself with.
So the question is, is it normal for the cats to burn out on a 2006 Cayman S after 7 years and 69k miles? This seems very premature to me.
If it is the cats, what are my options?
I have a full OPC service history (with the most recent service being a major one a week before I left for my trip), and official extended warranty, but ridiculously (IMO), the cats are not covered by this and so far it hasn't been worth the paper it is printed on - not covering anything that has needed doing as it is all deemed wear and tear (exhaust gaskets, broken key, broken rear suspension springs, dead battery). Given this, is there much chance of Porsche GB offering a good will contribution? Has anyone on here had any luck with this?
Warranty runs until the end of the year. If PGB don't offer anything I am considering writing off what is remaining on it and going independent with some sports cats and a sports exhaust, as that looks like it will be considerably cheaper (about half the price, if the European prices for OEM cats that I was quoted are anything to go by), and I will have very little reason, or desire, to keep it in the OPC network.
What could cause the cats to burn out so early? Is there anything I should get the OPC to check for as possible causes - excess burnt oil, boroscope, etc?
If it is the cats, would you expect the light to have come back on immediately after they cleared it or is it normal that it could go 2 long driving days and several hundreds of miles before appearing again?
Does the official sports exhaust kit include primary cats? Is fitting this an option rather than just replacing like for like? At least this would feel like I am gaining something and make parting with such a huge sum of money easier to take.
I should also add that the car passed its MOT just a month before the trip, so emissions were obviously fine then.
Once again, apologies for the long post and thanks in advance for any advice you can give, especially in regards to the possible causes.
Edited by ChipsAndCheese on Thursday 4th July 18:35
It sounds like you already know the official answer.
That being said it sounds like you're a good customer of Porsche & the OPC so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a consideration of a goodwill contribution, especially if you were minded to kick up a bit of a fuss and point out how the warranty has been worthless to you thus far and you've still kept your custom with them, and that this is the final straw and that you'll be taking it to indys in future.
No sense worrying too much until you hear what they say though.
That being said it sounds like you're a good customer of Porsche & the OPC so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a consideration of a goodwill contribution, especially if you were minded to kick up a bit of a fuss and point out how the warranty has been worthless to you thus far and you've still kept your custom with them, and that this is the final straw and that you'll be taking it to indys in future.
No sense worrying too much until you hear what they say though.
REALIST123 said:
They don't usually fail without some other problem, like over fuelling or oil contamination. Does the car use much oil? How has the fuel consumption been?
Fuel consumption hasn't been noticably different. It always varies anyway based on the type of journeys I'm doing, so difficult to tell. There was a 987 Boxster S 3.2 on our trip which was consistently more efficient, but there was normally less than a couple of mpg difference, and that is to be expected with the smaller engine, I think. Plus, whereas the Boxster just went topless, I had the air con on which is likely to affect mpg a bit.Oil usage is higher than it used to be, but still not terrible. I never used to need to top it up between services as it never seemed to use a drop, but recently it has needed about 250ml every month or two. I did say I was a bit concerned about it at the recent service, as the tail pipes do soot up a fair amount but they said everything seemed ok (they didn't do a boroscope though).
On the Euro trip it needed a top up part way through; about 300ml or so I think it was.
Magic919 said:
On an 06 Cayman S, I'd be asking them to check the bores for scoring.
This did cross my mind. If it is the case it would show that it can happen to anyone regardless of how the car is driven - I have read all the threads about it on here and as a result have driven it like Hartech advised, i.e. never drive away hard after sitting at the lights, etc.Edited by ChipsAndCheese on Thursday 4th July 19:37
ChipsAndCheese said:
Oil usage is higher than it used to be, but still not terrible. I never used to need to top it up between services as it never seemed to use a drop, but recently it has needed about 250ml every month or two. I did say I was a bit concerned about it at the recent service, as the tail pipes do soot up a fair amount but they said everything seemed ok (they didn't do a boroscope though).
That's not a good sign.On the plus side if it did turn out to be scored bores you'd be covered anyway, and would perversely be in a better position than if it was the catalytic converters!
Catalytic converter covered by warranty? It is a consumable, like a lot of other stuff.
Lets get back to brass tacks here. You bought a car, cars need maintenance and the price of that maintenance varies considerably. Every car has a different usage rate for fuel, brakes, tyres and cats. I don't think 70k miles is absurd for cats, in fact have had other cars go earlier - can be bad fuel, high temps, bad sensors etc.
A warranty is for when something breaks that shouldn't. This is not that.
Every time someone posts I see a mention of a Porsche contribution, naturally everyone that has a problem now expects some sort of contribution. As this plays out, Porsche is going to be more reluctant to admit fault because they know as they do, people will take the proverbial mile.
Pay for the repair, gets the sensors checked and chalk it up to bad luck. Also, get out of the OPC network with that aged car - there's no upside.
Lets get back to brass tacks here. You bought a car, cars need maintenance and the price of that maintenance varies considerably. Every car has a different usage rate for fuel, brakes, tyres and cats. I don't think 70k miles is absurd for cats, in fact have had other cars go earlier - can be bad fuel, high temps, bad sensors etc.
A warranty is for when something breaks that shouldn't. This is not that.
Every time someone posts I see a mention of a Porsche contribution, naturally everyone that has a problem now expects some sort of contribution. As this plays out, Porsche is going to be more reluctant to admit fault because they know as they do, people will take the proverbial mile.
Pay for the repair, gets the sensors checked and chalk it up to bad luck. Also, get out of the OPC network with that aged car - there's no upside.
I'm surprised your broken coil springs weren't covered. I had front springs done on warranty, wouldn't expect them to be a wear and tear item
Must admit after my exhaust bolts corroded to nothing I think porsche build quality isn't up to much anymore.
A friend at work has a thirteen year old accord type r and it has had much less done than my 7 year old cayman
Porsche quality seems very, very average to me!
Must admit after my exhaust bolts corroded to nothing I think porsche build quality isn't up to much anymore.
A friend at work has a thirteen year old accord type r and it has had much less done than my 7 year old cayman
Porsche quality seems very, very average to me!
LBduck said:
You bought a car, cars need maintenance and the price of that maintenance varies considerably. Every car has a different usage rate for fuel, brakes, tyres and cats.
Thanks for the slightly patronising response, but I am fully aware that cars need maintenance. I bought the car 3 years ago and have spent a lot in servicing and general maintenance to keep the car at its best, so the cost of running a Porsche is nothing new to me. I wouldn't be shocked or complaining about run of the mill maintenance, fuel or brakes. To lump cats in with those is ridiculous IMO. Having just replaced the rear coil springs, I can understand how that part would wear over 7 years of use, but I expect a lot more from the cats.Every part of a car can be considered wear and tear, but they will all have different designed lifespans. In my opinion, the cats should have a longer expected lifespan than other parts, so should be warrantied. Given that in the US all the emissions components have a minimum 8 year/80k miles warranty, as required by law, Porsche will have designed the parts to last at least that long, otherwise they would be costing themselves in warranty repairs over there. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect that mine should have lasted, at the very least, another year/10k miles, especially considering that the car has not had a particularly tough life.
Anyway, I still have my fingers crossed for it being a dodgy MAF sensor or something cheaper to fix like that, but I will find out tomorrow. I just wanted to know what I should get them to check for as possible causes, and thanks to the others who have posted, I have a bit more info to go in with.
I didn't suggest oil usage was related to the cats issue, and I was monitoring that before the engine light came on. I only mentioned that because someone asked about it. I think burnt oil can be a cause for the cats to expire prematurely though, if what I have read is correct, so it would be more related to investigating why they could have failed prematurely, if they have.
But the oil usage, though seemingly more than it wa a while back, is still not that bad and still well within Porsche's 'normal' tolerances.
I'll report back after the investigation at the OPC.
But the oil usage, though seemingly more than it wa a while back, is still not that bad and still well within Porsche's 'normal' tolerances.
I'll report back after the investigation at the OPC.
ChipsAndCheese said:
I didn't suggest oil usage was related to the cats issue, and I was monitoring that before the engine light came on. I only mentioned that because someone asked about it. I think burnt oil can be a cause for the cats to expire prematurely though, if what I have read is correct, so it would be more related to investigating why they could have failed prematurely, if they have.
But the oil usage, though seemingly more than it wa a while back, is still not that bad and still well within Porsche's 'normal' tolerances.
I'll report back after the investigation at the OPC.
You're right, if the car starts burning a lot of oil the cats could suffer but from what you say you are nowhere near that point. But the oil usage, though seemingly more than it wa a while back, is still not that bad and still well within Porsche's 'normal' tolerances.
I'll report back after the investigation at the OPC.
And I agree that the cats should last better than 6 years 70K. Ridiculous that they fail at that, another indication of poor quality.
I had the same issue with the cats on my last Euro trip. Very similar symptoms as I waited for the ferry back after several thousand miles. Orange engine light came on... called OPC and they said it would be OK as long as it didn't go Red...
All was fine with new cat fitted (FYI this IS a warranty item) but asking on here they were noted for poor quality according to PH. Frankly I have no idea but 60k miles (for mine) seems a little short.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
In terms of use, no lack of Italian tune ups my end and no oil use at all. Literally none in the last several thousand miles and I check all the time.
Has anyone any other ideas about reasons for them failing particularly. Can see how running poorly (be it scored things or otherwise) will generate other particulate in the exhaust which would be reasonable... or perhaps Euro fuels - or more likely the mix - might create some difference in temperature but frankly I don't know and it seems to me a little difficult.
Once they're cracked - which was my problem - they don't do their job properly but as per my driving, I'm not sure if just getting them super hot will clear them. Can' hurt I suppose, V-Power and a good blat should achieve the high temps but are we not talking platinum here (assuming it's the old type?) so be pretty surprised if it 'burnt off' an issue. If it's particulate (so oil for instance) then would that just make it worse?
ETA: Check out http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p97126.htm
All was fine with new cat fitted (FYI this IS a warranty item) but asking on here they were noted for poor quality according to PH. Frankly I have no idea but 60k miles (for mine) seems a little short.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
In terms of use, no lack of Italian tune ups my end and no oil use at all. Literally none in the last several thousand miles and I check all the time.
Has anyone any other ideas about reasons for them failing particularly. Can see how running poorly (be it scored things or otherwise) will generate other particulate in the exhaust which would be reasonable... or perhaps Euro fuels - or more likely the mix - might create some difference in temperature but frankly I don't know and it seems to me a little difficult.
Once they're cracked - which was my problem - they don't do their job properly but as per my driving, I'm not sure if just getting them super hot will clear them. Can' hurt I suppose, V-Power and a good blat should achieve the high temps but are we not talking platinum here (assuming it's the old type?) so be pretty surprised if it 'burnt off' an issue. If it's particulate (so oil for instance) then would that just make it worse?
ETA: Check out http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p97126.htm
Thanks sneakybear, interesting that you got yours done on the warranty. I read in your thread that you also suspected German 'V-Power racing 100' or whatever it is called. Interestingly, that is what I had also filled up with the day the light came on. Surely a German market fuel would be fine on a German car, though, so I doubt it was that.
Anyway, I have returned from OPC Leicester (fantastic service from them once again). No obvious problems, so it could be a long, drawn out diagnosis period, but they are ruling out all possibilities rather than going for a quick and easy 'educated' guess.
OPC Leicester found that the Munich OPC had not cleared the error properly so that is likely the reason for it returning. Apparently they had cleared the light and message, but not the actual fault from the system memory. That has now been cleared and I have been instructed to drive the car and let them know if it comes on again. If it does, then the next step would be to replace the oxygen sensors before and after the cats - which would thankfully be done on warranty. They said they replace very few cats, so their current thinking is a 60% chance that it is the sensors, 40% the cats.
If the worst case happens and new sensors don't resolve it, then it will be new cats, and I will insist on an engine inspection. Re: the oil use, they said I am right to monitor it, but really, it is easily within normal tolerances at the moment. The build up on my tail pipes is nowhere near what it would be like if it was burning oil excessively. So a positive outcome for now, and I just have to wait and see if the pesky engine light makes a return.
Anyway, I have returned from OPC Leicester (fantastic service from them once again). No obvious problems, so it could be a long, drawn out diagnosis period, but they are ruling out all possibilities rather than going for a quick and easy 'educated' guess.
OPC Leicester found that the Munich OPC had not cleared the error properly so that is likely the reason for it returning. Apparently they had cleared the light and message, but not the actual fault from the system memory. That has now been cleared and I have been instructed to drive the car and let them know if it comes on again. If it does, then the next step would be to replace the oxygen sensors before and after the cats - which would thankfully be done on warranty. They said they replace very few cats, so their current thinking is a 60% chance that it is the sensors, 40% the cats.
If the worst case happens and new sensors don't resolve it, then it will be new cats, and I will insist on an engine inspection. Re: the oil use, they said I am right to monitor it, but really, it is easily within normal tolerances at the moment. The build up on my tail pipes is nowhere near what it would be like if it was burning oil excessively. So a positive outcome for now, and I just have to wait and see if the pesky engine light makes a return.
Edited by ChipsAndCheese on Friday 5th July 15:28
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