Starting problems continue...

[AndrewS2]

Morning,

Having run the car every day for 2 weeks and had no problems starting hot or cold...it now won't start again! I've been doing long journeys, short journeys and yesterday it ran perfect on the 40 mile journey back to my parents house. Came to start it to put it in the garage last night, got a big clunk from the solenoid but nothing else. Tried again this morning, and still nothing. I get a big clunk, but it isn't even offering to turn over.

Fortunately, I'm blessed (& cursed) with a very steep drive, so I rolled it down and it bump started no problem at all. It is now on ramps in the garage.

So far I have:

- Brand new starter & solenoid - taken off the car again, bench tested and the motor runs fine
- New positive and negative batter cables, new wire from the ignition to the starter. All new connections and cleaned & reconnected the earth strap at the outrigger
- Multi meter tested battery (battery is new) - 12.70 volts
- multi meter tested leads at the starter motor end - 12.69 volts

I'm going to refit the motor, and see if just by dismantling I've un-seized the starter or something...but while I'm doing that.....thoughts???

Andrew

[GadgeS3C]

The dreaded yellow connector?

[techbotics]

I no the problem... Mine will ofton just require a gently rock forward in 2rd and will then start on key. It seems to be more when battery low. After too many shirt journeys or when hot..

I'm looking to improve the starter earth next ..

Cheers D S3

[AndrewS2]

Connected back up and the starter spins fine before I've re-attached to the car.

Would the yellow connecter not prevent that? It seems to be getting plenty of power to spin from the ignition?


I must admit I've looked for...but never found a yellow connector. I've so far assumed someone has already chopped it out and replaced it...

[AndrewS2]

techbotics said:

Mine will ofton just require a gently rock forward in 2rd and will then start on key. I

Tried that too yesterday and still got nothing...

[orange_dodo]

Have you got a dedicated earth from the starter or are you following the standard earth route through the engine block?

The starting problem I (and AutoAndy) had was solved by cleaning up all the electrical connections, as you have, but also cleaning up the earth path. It sounds like you've covered everything but your problem still sounds like it is related to lack of juice.

[AndrewS2]

Well. Re-fitted, turned the key and it roared into life.



Tom - I am using the standard earth route. Apart from checking the voltage - is there a multimeter test I can do, to see how much juice it is getting...?? My electrician skills are pretty basic as you can see...

Thanks for all the quick replies!!!

Andrew

[GadgeS3C]

AndrewS2 said:

Connected back up and the starter spins fine before I've re-attached to the car.

Would the yellow connecter not prevent that? It seems to be getting plenty of power to spin from the ignition?


I must admit I've looked for...but never found a yellow connector. I've so far assumed someone has already chopped it out and replaced it...

Yup - fair enough. Does sound like a different problem - especially if the dreaded yellow beastie has already been exorcised!

BTW - I replaced mine with an Anderson type connector - that melted too! Worth checking how it's been replaced just in case.

[orange_dodo]

AndrewS2 said:

Well. Re-fitted, turned the key and it roared into life.



Tom - I am using the standard earth route. Apart from checking the voltage - is there a multimeter test I can do, to see how much juice it is getting...?? My electrician skills are pretty basic as you can see...

Thanks for all the quick replies!!!

Andrew

The standard earth route is from the starter casing, through the (copper?) bell housing gasket, through the engine to the engine earth, then finally through the chassis to the chassis earth. Any one (or all) of the connections could be high resistance which would limit the power that the solenoid can draw. If you don't get enough power, the solenoid doesn't engage enough to touch the contacts that switch the starter on hence a 'clunk' and no starting.

To test it, the easiest way is to see if there is any resistance between the starter housing and the battery negative using the resistance setting on your multimeter. Touch the two probes together first to see what the multimeter thinks the resistance is as it should read zero but it never does. The resistance may drop over a few seconds as you do that as multimeters seem to calibrate themselves. When it's pretty stable remember the value and measure the resistance between the starter bolt and the battery -ve. Anything more than a fraction of an Ohm increase is bad. Remember when the engine heats up the resistance goes up too which compounds the problem and can lead to hot starting issues.

To fix it I just cleaned up the starter to bell housing interface with some wet and dry paper. The better solution would be to run a braided earth cable from one of the bolts on the starter (clean up the area to shiny metal first) to either the battery negative or the point where the chassis earth connects to the chassis.

Hope that wasn't too noddy and helps!

Tom

[AndrewS2]

That is a huge help Tom - thank you very much!! I'll do all of the above before it comes down off the blocks tomorrow.

It's at these times when I wish I'd done engineering and not Biochemistry at Uni...it would be much more useful to me!!!!!

Andrew

[GadgeS3C]

AndrewS2 said:

That is a huge help Tom - thank you very much!! I'll do all of the above before it comes down off the blocks tomorrow.

It's at these times when I wish I'd done engineering and not Biochemistry at Uni...it would be much more useful to me!!!!!

Andrew

Us engineers hit fings wiv 'ammers - Tom knows about electricky things - clever stuff!

[Barkychoc]

If you have a dodgy earth the connection concerned will get hot when its playing up - just be careful to avoid burning yourself.

[orange_dodo]

GadgeS3C said:

Us engineers hit fings wiv 'ammers - Tom knows about electricky things - clever stuff!

Talking of hammers, I spent the day smashing up a path with a sledge hammer. Hammers are definitely the most useful tool you can have, especially big ones!

Technically I'm an aerospace engineer so I try not to hit things with hammers at work, they tend to break! My electrical knowledge is hard earnt from dealing with the S and all it's lovely electrical gremlins. I love TVRs.

Good luck Andrew!

[AndrewS2]

Update: everything clean, resistance checked (about 0.1) all working. Tested several times in the garage, fired no problems...

...got up and went for a 15 minute 3 mile journey. Stopped, completed errand, got back in 5 mins later.... CLUNK...nothing.

Bump started, returned to garage. Run out of time now so que reliable MG midget which had been promoted to a trip to Goodwood next weekend.

Very frustrating!!! Will have to wait a few weekends until I have time / patience to start again..

Beer time. Andrew.

[GadgeS3C]

AndrewS2 said:

Update: everything clean, resistance checked (about 0.1) all working. Tested several times in the garage, fired no problems...

...got up and went for a 15 minute 3 mile journey. Stopped, completed errand, got back in 5 mins later.... CLUNK...nothing.

Bump started, returned to garage. Run out of time now so que reliable MG midget which had been promoted to a trip to Goodwood next weekend.

Very frustrating!!! Will have to wait a few weekends until I have time / patience to start again..

Beer time. Andrew.

That does sound very similar to what mine did when the yellow connector was playing up. Sounds like you've got the earth side sorted but I'd check if you are getting a decent feed from the ignition switch. If the yellow connector has been replaced has it been well done (pardon the pun if you've seen a "cooked" yellow connector!).

Not too difficult to get the cowl off the steering column and have a look.

Mine was very random when it'd play up...

[orange_dodo]

I agree with Gary, if your earth is fine then it must be the +ve side. I'd suggest disconnecting the solenoid wire and testing the resistance of that to the battery +ve when you turn the ignition switch to start. It may be safer to disconnect the battery +ve when you do this though!

Edited by orange_dodo on Monday 8th July 21:14

[techbotics]

Resistance is temperature dependant.. I am not sure what the exact difference would be though.

Are you measuring when hot or cold?

Strikes me that like mine yours is less reliable when hot.??

D S3

[Buzzlt]

Hi Andrew
Sorry to hear about your problems. Max had the same problem in the Alpes - luckily it turned out he had an electrician on hand and I sorted it fairy quickly. Turned out to be the connection on the battery which goes to the starter which had broken. This was due to both bonnet hinges snapping (i repaired earlier) which fractured the ring terminal on the battery.

As said disconnect the battery and assuming you are just using an average multimeter then if you connect the leads together that will give you the lowest ohm reading. I would investigate anything over 0.4 of an ohm on to of that. Another good thing to check would be the voltage (battery connected) on the ack of the starter. If that's as near as makes no difference to the battery then investigate the yellow connector. Sorry but don't know where that is as only have limited knowledge of the S !

Missed you this trip maybe next time?

Good luck Greg

[Scoobimax]

Buzzlt said:

Max had the same problem in the Alpes - luckily it turned out he had an electrician on hand and I sorted it fairy quickly. Turned out to be the connection on the battery which goes to the starter which had broken. This was due to both bonnet hinges snapping (i repaired earlier) which fractured the ring terminal on the battery.

Longers has has his mechanic Liam, I have mine, Greg ;-)

They're really very good you know.

Buzzlt said:

Missed you this trip maybe next time?

Offer still stands if your S is not ready / fit.

[AndrewS2]

Evening all,

I am now officially an expert in multi metering... I have checked every part of the circuit to make sure I have no resistance and a good voltage. Also checked the current flowing to the starter when the key is turned. All checks out, perfect. My yellow connector is well and truly gone - someones done a really nice job of making a new fully soldered connection. Just hope I don't need to take the steering column off any time soon...

So I surmised it must be the new starter motor. Took back off the car, and rang them to say I suspected it was faulty. Unhelpfully, the company is only open Mon-Fri 9-5 and they wanted me to drop it in so they could look at it while I was there...so had to wait until I was passing on the way back from camping last weekend. Arrived at the place, asked them to check it and they said they were too busy and I'd have to leave it with them. I pointed out that i was a long way away so I couldn't come back and pick it up - mechanic said they'd post it.

Got a call on Monday to tell me there is nothing wrong with it, and that I should pay them another 10 quid to post it back. We had a heated discussion about this, and eventually I gave up, paid the money and now have the starter back.

Fitted to the car - still wouldn't start. Removed from car. Put old starter back together, cleaned up the connections and did a proper job of cleaning the old solenoid. Bench tested old starter by using 3 jump leads from a battery (1 to case, 1 to positive and then touching one from positive to trigger connection), old starter runs fine.

Bench tested NEW STARTER - dead. The solenoid clicks but the motor doesn't run!!!!

Fitted old starter back to car (had to bodge the trigger connection as when I removed I had to cut it off it was corroded on). Started up, went for a drive and everything is working perfectly, hot, cold, the lot.

Has anyone had this sort of issue with a new component before? Obviously, I'm going to be looking for a refund, but what should I do now? I've spent 108 pounds including the extra postage on an item that doesn't work - how do I argue my case if they refuse to refund?? If I post it back to them, they have the part AND my money...but as they're only open 9-5 I'd have to take a days holiday to take it in person!!

All in all - very annoying. At least I can use the car again. Will need a new solenoid at least though as my new 'bodged' connection won't last forever

Andrew