UK Trains vs Swiss Trains - why so different?

[RobM77]

I'm a regular user of trains in the UK and last week I travelled by train in Switzerland for the first time. I was amazed by just how much better their trains were, namely:

1) Noise. The Swiss mainline trains I used were extremely quiet. In the UK the air con blows constantly like a hair dryer. The Swiss trains presumably had aircon, but I never heard it. There was also no clackety clack from the track, or engine noise pulling away; in short that felt like going from a motor boat to a sailing boat - eerily quiet.

2) Movement. UK trains sway from side to side all the time - Swiss ones don't. The acceleration of UK trains is also jerky, as if the carriages are transmitting a compression wave down the length of the train - Swiss trains don't do that.

Does anyone know why things are so different between the two train systems? I'd be interested to know the historical or engineering reasons for example. I did notice one major difference - their track doesn't have sleepers connecting one rail to the other, just supports on each side.

[mattdaniels]

I don't know the actual answer is but usually when the question is "why is Britain's 'X' not as good as <insert name of country here>'s 'X'", the answer is "because <insert name of country here> have invested in updating their infrastructure".

[J3JCV]

It's not all roses:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21294241

[Whitean3]

mattdaniels said:

I don't know the actual answer is but usually when the question is "why is Britain's 'X' not as good as <insert name of country here>'s 'X'", the answer is "because <insert name of country here> have invested in updating their infrastructure".

In a nutshell, this. Plus the fact that the Swiss railways are very very heavily subsidized.

The other thing to remember is the Continental trains have a different loading gauge to the UK- The Swiss have basically the same Bombardier tilting trains as Virgin (Pendolinos) but have more interior space and thus are far less claustrophobic.

[Simpo Two]

What I don't quite understand about Switzerland is that it attracts the wealthy, so is presumably low tax, yet has excellent public services, suggesting high tax. Perhaps the difference is that they don't have a millstone welfare state, the EU and millions of freeloaders to pay for?

[Eric Mc]

Plus they accept money from anybody and any regime going - whether good or bad.

[Truckosaurus]

Simpo Two said:

What I don't quite understand about Switzerland is that it attracts the wealthy, so is presumably low tax, yet has excellent public services, suggesting high tax.

If it is anything like Monaco there will be pretty high local property taxes (council tax equivalent) to pay for local public services (clean streets, etc.) that the rich are happy to pay for in exchange for low overall taxation on their massive wealth.

[WelshBoyo]

Simpo Two said:

What I don't quite understand about Switzerland is that it attracts the wealthy, so is presumably low tax, yet has excellent public services, suggesting high tax. Perhaps the difference is that they don't have a millstone welfare state, the EU and millions of freeloaders to pay for?

Don't forget lots of millionaires paying low tax is better than lots of lower income people paying high tax. The rich people also buy lots more goods, travel more etc etc

This will give you some idea of the sorts of money little cantons can have to spend
http://www.zug4you.ch/cantons_unexpected_chf_84_4_...

Swiss Train as brilliant. I spent 5+ years living in Switzerland and even the buses are excellent. In 5 years of catching a bus to work and back it was only late once and that was because of proper heavy snow.

Every year they higher super computers to work out a train timetables based on number of passengers and most popular services and add extra trains where possible.

Also don't forget most Swiss trains are electric and use overhead power lines (not diesel like in the UK), so are much quieter, they also have double decker trains as their tunnels can handle the higher trains - so more room per carriage.

[RobM77]

The trains on my line to London are also electric, but via a third rail. I realise the key advantages, but does the Swiss overhead system have any advantages in terms of refinement? I just find my commuter train noisy, jerky and uncomfortable; whereas the Swiss trains are silent, smooth and lovely. In car terms it's like comparing a 1980s Fiesta with a modern S Class. Maybe they're just much more modern because they have more money? (as an early poster said).

[Ross1988]

RobM77 said:

I'm a regular user of trains in the UK and last week I travelled by train in Switzerland for the first time. I was amazed by just how much better their trains were, namely:

1) Noise. The Swiss mainline trains I used were extremely quiet. In the UK the air con blows constantly like a hair dryer. The Swiss trains presumably had aircon, but I never heard it. There was also no clackety clack from the track, or engine noise pulling away; in short that felt like going from a motor boat to a sailing boat - eerily quiet.


2) Movement. UK trains sway from side to side all the time - Swiss ones don't. The acceleration of UK trains is also jerky, as if the carriages are transmitting a compression wave down the length of the train - Swiss trains don't do that.

Does anyone know why things are so different between the two train systems? I'd be interested to know the historical or engineering reasons for example. I did notice one major difference - their track doesn't have sleepers connecting one rail to the other, just supports on each side.

British track is old, and the infrastructure is getting increasingly difficult to renew as tracks get more congested. The clickety clack you hear on British railways is the old railways, where the joints are every 22 yards, new rail is called CWR (Continuously welded rail) and can stretch for miles, there are breather joints every few miles to stop bucking in the heat.

The air con issues are to do with the old rolling stock we use, it is dated, it may look shiny but it is old, we still have trains with toilets that regularly dump straight onto the track.

There will be very little noise from swiss locomotives as, I think, they are electric. We still have big diesel units, but massive electrification upgrades are going on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation can start to explain the swaying motion. Richard Hammond did a bit on it for one of his engineering documentaries.

In short, there is investment, it just takes time, but you won't remember the time you went to London in a quiet air conned train that was on time, but you will remember the time you got stuck outside a junction for 2 hours in a noisy carriage.

Ross

[Whitean3]

Truckosaurus said:

Simpo Two said:

What I don't quite understand about Switzerland is that it attracts the wealthy, so is presumably low tax, yet has excellent public services, suggesting high tax.

Tax is pretty low for normal people here. it is split between what I guess you would call council tax, and state/National tax. Different communities have different taxation levels; some of the kantons are very low in tax. For the really rich, the attraction is that they can negotiate their own taxes to the community they live in.

I think you'll find excellent public transport in most continental european cities, because the whole network has been planned properly, with decent pricing policies, good punctuality and modern vehicles. There's no privatisation with companies trying to maximize their profits. In Switzerland, I'd also wager that the cost of cleaning up vandalism, graffiti etc. is miniscule compared to the UK.
Also there's nothin like as much sponging on benefits, if you don't have a resident's permit (for foreigners, linked to having a job), it's adios....

If it is anything like Monaco there will be pretty high local property taxes (council tax equivalent) to pay for local public services (clean streets, etc.) that the rich are happy to pay for in exchange for low overall taxation on their massive wealth.

Council tax is based on your salary; for me it is about 1/4 of my total tax bill. There are probably a lot of stealth taxes that I don't spot- such as speeding tickets; our rubbish bin bags are taxed (great idea that would never work in the UK). Nevertheless, VAT is also much lower- at 8% compared to the UK. But things tend to be more expensive and there is some shocking price fixing going on!

Switzerland is a bit like the bumble bee- laws of physics suggest it shouldn't be able to fly- Switzerland somehow shouldn't work, but does.

[Simpo Two]

Whitean3 said:

Switzerland is a bit like the bumble bee- laws of physics suggest it shouldn't be able to fly- Switzerland somehow shouldn't work, but does.

The EU is much easier to understand. It shouldn't work and doesn't!

I think Switzerland makes a lot of sense. Hoover in lots of money from anywhere and spend it wisely. It would be an excellent example for us to follow. But we won't. Our only choice is clockwise or anticlockwise...

[MitchT]

Simpo Two said:

What I don't quite understand about Switzerland is that it attracts the wealthy, so is presumably low tax, yet has excellent public services, suggesting high tax.

I suspect a country full of rich people paying low tax has more to spend on public services than a country combining average people paying high tax and benefit claimants subsequently consuming most of it.