Discussion
I'm very happy with my Elise 1.6 for the road....It's a pure Lotus experience and helps me keep my licence.
But for the track - something i'm now hooked on - a little more power would be nice, especially when i get to the big-boy circuits like Dijon, Spa and the Ring.
I'm considering either an upgrade to an Exige or an Elise S, or an additional car, a Caterham. I'm leaning towards a Caterham; highly focussed, delicate and powerful. The weak Elise is still a joy on public roads having its little neck wrung, plus it tours much more easily than a Caterham. Can a man have too many fun cars? Is this the right forum for impartial advice???
But for the track - something i'm now hooked on - a little more power would be nice, especially when i get to the big-boy circuits like Dijon, Spa and the Ring.
I'm considering either an upgrade to an Exige or an Elise S, or an additional car, a Caterham. I'm leaning towards a Caterham; highly focussed, delicate and powerful. The weak Elise is still a joy on public roads having its little neck wrung, plus it tours much more easily than a Caterham. Can a man have too many fun cars? Is this the right forum for impartial advice???
mm depends how you define 'touring' and how many people are going to be in the car !
I've never owned an Elise but took one on a 5 day tour of the UK last year when my Tiger kit car was off the road. Space wise - there wasn't a heap more in teh Elise for storage than the kit, the soft top had to stay off as much as poss as the noise became tiresome and i missed the wind in my face experience.
if you're thinking of keeping the elise and getting a Caterham then might be worthwhile looking at alternatives if you just want a track focused toy - plenty of kits have solid handling and plenty of oomph.
obviously a subjective opinion, but having driven an aero screened 7esque car for about 40k miles in the last 4 years, i can't imagine losing that and going for a vx/elise type car, totally different driving feeling and overall sensation.
I've never owned an Elise but took one on a 5 day tour of the UK last year when my Tiger kit car was off the road. Space wise - there wasn't a heap more in teh Elise for storage than the kit, the soft top had to stay off as much as poss as the noise became tiresome and i missed the wind in my face experience.
if you're thinking of keeping the elise and getting a Caterham then might be worthwhile looking at alternatives if you just want a track focused toy - plenty of kits have solid handling and plenty of oomph.
obviously a subjective opinion, but having driven an aero screened 7esque car for about 40k miles in the last 4 years, i can't imagine losing that and going for a vx/elise type car, totally different driving feeling and overall sensation.
i've narrowed my search to a SS Sigma (better balance??), SS R (let's get the power in now and not regret later, plus upgrade path), a s/h R300 (no point? SS R same price and shiny new) or R400 (power!). R 500 looks too much £ for my needs. i'm leaning to SS R, although 140 SS is probably the real sweet spot. Decisions...
I'm sure you'd love the SuperSport Sigma. I've got the same engine in mine and it's a joy to drive. You won't feel any lack of power on the road, it loves to rev and the noise is brilliant 
On my local track of Llandow I feel I could probably do with more power as I know the track very well and it's overtaking spots are limited. However, I was in Anglesey last month and not for a second did I want more power - the limiting factor was me behind the wheel as I was getting battered by the sea winds and didn't have the cojones to keep my foot flat after Church. Everywhere else on the track I found I was keeping up and passing people with no problem.
An R300/Supersport R wasn't an option for me at the time due to bugdet but I'm quite glad I've had this as my first Caterham. I've still got a LOT of learning to do, and I get more of a kick out of being able to drive this one flat out than holding myself back out of fear!
I'd like an R400 in a few years, but I know I wouldn't be able to make the most of it at the moment. The thought of an R500 or the new 620R scares the hell out of me!
In regards to keeping the Elise and the Caterham, I think they're both a little close to each other in terms of what they offer. You probably have more luggage space in a Caterham (with a boot bag), but the Elise's real advantage is when it's really wet I suppose. I've considered swapping my Megane for an Elise, but I just know it would sit around un-used on sunny days as I'd be out in the Caterham instead. If you're in the position where you could own both, I'd try it for a while and see how it goes, you could always sell the Elise next year if you find it's being unused.
I'm touring in mine for the first time next week - 8 days in Scotland. I'll report back on how I found it once we're back (unless it's due to hammer down... in which case we might take the Megane....).
On my local track of Llandow I feel I could probably do with more power as I know the track very well and it's overtaking spots are limited. However, I was in Anglesey last month and not for a second did I want more power - the limiting factor was me behind the wheel as I was getting battered by the sea winds and didn't have the cojones to keep my foot flat after Church. Everywhere else on the track I found I was keeping up and passing people with no problem.
An R300/Supersport R wasn't an option for me at the time due to bugdet but I'm quite glad I've had this as my first Caterham. I've still got a LOT of learning to do, and I get more of a kick out of being able to drive this one flat out than holding myself back out of fear!
I'd like an R400 in a few years, but I know I wouldn't be able to make the most of it at the moment. The thought of an R500 or the new 620R scares the hell out of me!
In regards to keeping the Elise and the Caterham, I think they're both a little close to each other in terms of what they offer. You probably have more luggage space in a Caterham (with a boot bag), but the Elise's real advantage is when it's really wet I suppose. I've considered swapping my Megane for an Elise, but I just know it would sit around un-used on sunny days as I'd be out in the Caterham instead. If you're in the position where you could own both, I'd try it for a while and see how it goes, you could always sell the Elise next year if you find it's being unused.
I'm touring in mine for the first time next week - 8 days in Scotland. I'll report back on how I found it once we're back (unless it's due to hammer down... in which case we might take the Megane....).
Hi
I've both cars. An Elise Mk1 and a Caterham RS175 SV. The Elise is totaly different form the Cat. It took me quite a time to get used to the driving position in the Cat. But now I'll like both of them. Teh Cat is purer to drive. The Elise is fun 'cruiser' with allows you to drive really fast if you want to. The Elise is mor practical, but the Cat is my daily.
If it is possible for you, keep both
Regards
Piple
I've both cars. An Elise Mk1 and a Caterham RS175 SV. The Elise is totaly different form the Cat. It took me quite a time to get used to the driving position in the Cat. But now I'll like both of them. Teh Cat is purer to drive. The Elise is fun 'cruiser' with allows you to drive really fast if you want to. The Elise is mor practical, but the Cat is my daily.
If it is possible for you, keep both
Regards
Piple
framerateuk said:
I'm sure you'd love the SuperSport Sigma. I've got the same engine in mine and it's a joy to drive. You won't feel any lack of power on the road, it loves to rev and the noise is brilliant
On my local track of Llandow I feel I could probably do with more power as I know the track very well and it's overtaking spots are limited.
On my local track of Llandow I feel I could probably do with more power as I know the track very well and it's overtaking spots are limited.
This in spades. I am a total driving novice and find that it has as much power as I would ever need on a road and handling/sound is fantastic. When it comes to track its fantastic but as framerateuk said it depends on the track and how you use it. For tracks with long straights you will find that you have to pullover a bit to let the fat boys past with twice the power then get held up in the corners. I love it though and having only tracked twice cannot wait till weekend - although who knows what weather will be.
And anyway - wheres the fun at zooming along in a straight its all about the twisties surely
Did you get the peashooter exhaust on yours Andy or did you opt for the trackday exhaust? I can't imagine how noisy the peashooter would be since mine is loud already!
Also, if you get a few minutes next time you're out in the car, could you get a side on shot for me? Mine's currently on 15s and I'm moving to 13s so I'm trying to get an idea about the suspension heights. Unloaded the front wisbones are almost flat, going down slightly towards the wheel, while the rear has a pretty decent gap above the tyre, even with the 15s.
Also, if you get a few minutes next time you're out in the car, could you get a side on shot for me? Mine's currently on 15s and I'm moving to 13s so I'm trying to get an idea about the suspension heights. Unloaded the front wisbones are almost flat, going down slightly towards the wheel, while the rear has a pretty decent gap above the tyre, even with the 15s.
i'll keep Elise as i live in 2 countries, so can keep a fun car in both. There are different cars for sure.
The Caterham would be my track car, so in that sense the SSR is probably better. My Elise is 'underpowered' but great fun for the road. It would be a shame to occasionally hanker after power in both of my toys.... I'd rather invest now and keep/upgrade - hence Duratec thought. I'm familiar with the SS via Caterham Experience and they are awesome - no complaints at Silverstone. You don't NEED anymore power, but with the Elise already light on power, maybe i WANT more.
Either that or get a TVR too for the occasional kick in the kidneys (and wallet). SS R would be a given, were it not for the thought that the Sigma may be better balanced....
The Caterham would be my track car, so in that sense the SSR is probably better. My Elise is 'underpowered' but great fun for the road. It would be a shame to occasionally hanker after power in both of my toys.... I'd rather invest now and keep/upgrade - hence Duratec thought. I'm familiar with the SS via Caterham Experience and they are awesome - no complaints at Silverstone. You don't NEED anymore power, but with the Elise already light on power, maybe i WANT more.
Either that or get a TVR too for the occasional kick in the kidneys (and wallet). SS R would be a given, were it not for the thought that the Sigma may be better balanced....
I have both a Caterham Superlight and an S1 Elise. Whilst they are similar is some respects, they are sufficiently different in others to be able to justify both. My Lotus has a hardtop which makes it more practical, particularly in winter.
The Caterham is faster but given gearing, it is flat out at 120mph ish. Was chatting to an owner of an R400 and he said the same so if you are after top speed, you may need to change your diff ratio etc. irrespective of engine.
Elise steering has more feel than the 7, but overall the Caterham is the more exciting car. Saying that, modifying the Lotus with a sports exhaust, engine tweak, harness etc may change things. Handling wise, they drive as their engine layouts would have you believe. Both are chuckable and great fun and with a decent geo setup, the Lotus is very benign and allows as much power oversteer as the 7! The main reason I bought the Elise was practicality-I don't use my 7 in the winter and found nothing more depressing than wanting a great drive when conditions were less than ideal so wanted something than still gave me the hit and which could be used year round without being ruined. Also you don't need earplugs, get wet and the missus is happy are other factors in its favour. And to these eyes, a hard-topped S1 on victories is a stunning looking thing.
As for which 7, it depends on what you find more attractive, big power where the engine dominates or perhaps a sweeter balance where all the components are perfectly matched. I find 140bhp more than sufficient on the road - it is not underpowered and I can work it hard without losing my licence. There are faster cars out there and a quick hot hatch would probably leave me for dead in a straight line. However despite not being a great driver, on a reasonably twisty track, I could keep up with a GT3 quite easily (the usual conditions accepted). And which car was sideways around every corner? Not the Porsche. However, I see the appeal of a big engined car too and can understand the reasoning. It really depends on what dynamic qualities you find more important.
The Caterham is faster but given gearing, it is flat out at 120mph ish. Was chatting to an owner of an R400 and he said the same so if you are after top speed, you may need to change your diff ratio etc. irrespective of engine.
Elise steering has more feel than the 7, but overall the Caterham is the more exciting car. Saying that, modifying the Lotus with a sports exhaust, engine tweak, harness etc may change things. Handling wise, they drive as their engine layouts would have you believe. Both are chuckable and great fun and with a decent geo setup, the Lotus is very benign and allows as much power oversteer as the 7! The main reason I bought the Elise was practicality-I don't use my 7 in the winter and found nothing more depressing than wanting a great drive when conditions were less than ideal so wanted something than still gave me the hit and which could be used year round without being ruined. Also you don't need earplugs, get wet and the missus is happy are other factors in its favour. And to these eyes, a hard-topped S1 on victories is a stunning looking thing.
As for which 7, it depends on what you find more attractive, big power where the engine dominates or perhaps a sweeter balance where all the components are perfectly matched. I find 140bhp more than sufficient on the road - it is not underpowered and I can work it hard without losing my licence. There are faster cars out there and a quick hot hatch would probably leave me for dead in a straight line. However despite not being a great driver, on a reasonably twisty track, I could keep up with a GT3 quite easily (the usual conditions accepted). And which car was sideways around every corner? Not the Porsche. However, I see the appeal of a big engined car too and can understand the reasoning. It really depends on what dynamic qualities you find more important.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Tuesday 16th July 18:46
Edited by SidewaysSi on Tuesday 16th July 18:49
framerateuk said:
Did you get the peashooter exhaust on yours Andy or did you opt for the trackday exhaust? I can't imagine how noisy the peashooter would be since mine is loud already!
Also, if you get a few minutes next time you're out in the car, could you get a side on shot for me? Mine's currently on 15s and I'm moving to 13s so I'm trying to get an idea about the suspension heights. Unloaded the front wisbones are almost flat, going down slightly towards the wheel, while the rear has a pretty decent gap above the tyre, even with the 15s.
Given how helpful everyone has been I thought it best to give some payback Also, if you get a few minutes next time you're out in the car, could you get a side on shot for me? Mine's currently on 15s and I'm moving to 13s so I'm trying to get an idea about the suspension heights. Unloaded the front wisbones are almost flat, going down slightly towards the wheel, while the rear has a pretty decent gap above the tyre, even with the 15s.
Have created a public folder in https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=3367A05C9688... and if you need any more pics just ask! Best to click into a photo then view original - when you zoom in can see measurements.I would say I can take 0 credit for this car in any way shape or form (though same hate paintwork heh) was all done by far cleverer people than me. I will say it handles awesome on track and now that taken away the pain that is high effort brake pedal should be even better
Edited by Andy Bell on Tuesday 16th July 21:18
Its a tough decision, I have an Elise series II with 134 bhp, a Caterham with a 230 bhp K series and another Caterham with 125 bhp Sigma (my Academy race car). To be honest the Sigma makes an excellent fun track car, my driving abilities have improved hugely driving this around the tracks! The big power K is better in many ways (power, brakes, tyres, gearbox, LSD, suspension etc!) and it puts a massive smile on my face whenever I use it - but it made me lazy on track! its hard to exploit the power on road and on trackdays it blasts past almost anything but without the need to be precise, no need to take optimum lines or to carry speed through corners as it has just so much grunt. Later this year I have to sell one of the Caterhams and I can tell you it isn't going to be easy choosing which! There is something very satisfying about wringing out every last bit of speed from the Sigma car and embarrassing much more expensive metal, but I'm so emotionally attached to the older car (I built it 10 years ago and have upgraded it so much since).
It sounds to me like you are on the right lines - 140 to 170 bhp is probably about right, I do sometimes wish my academy car had a bit more grunt to help overtaking. My other car used to have 165 bhp and at this it was probably at its best if I'm honest. From a personal point of view I prefer the older cars, there seem to be a few quality issues with some parts on my Sigma car which have never been a problem on my other car. If you can find a decent R300 with a good history and LSD then I think this would make you quite happy. Try to get out in a few and experience the differences if you can.
Follow my progress on www.sevenracing.co.uk
It sounds to me like you are on the right lines - 140 to 170 bhp is probably about right, I do sometimes wish my academy car had a bit more grunt to help overtaking. My other car used to have 165 bhp and at this it was probably at its best if I'm honest. From a personal point of view I prefer the older cars, there seem to be a few quality issues with some parts on my Sigma car which have never been a problem on my other car. If you can find a decent R300 with a good history and LSD then I think this would make you quite happy. Try to get out in a few and experience the differences if you can.
Follow my progress on www.sevenracing.co.uk
Grubbster said:
there seem to be a few quality issues with some parts on my Sigma car
Interesting. I monitor the Caterham Graduates site and there was a few posts about engines blowing up (http://www.graduates.org.uk/forum.asp) and suggestion was dipstick can come out under extreme cornering and oil disappears from engine and blammo. I have gone the secure dipstick route now What other issues are you finding?
And to backup what others have said I know that my lack of skill are the definite limiting factor for how fast I can go round a track and I am so far off limits. I think this is what owning something like a supersport is about and grubbster seems to back that up comparing it to his sh** off a shovel Caterham
Grubbster - we're on the same page! what privileged dilemmas we have.
i'm leaning towards the SS R. if nothing else it will hold its own more on the big tracks (ring & Spa).
I do believe power (and torque) makes people lazy, but 180 isn't quite in same league as your 230 - that's more than an R400.
R300 is a classic and quite pricey secondhand, so a new SS R that's always been mine and will be a keeper is appealing.
If i'm keeping my Elise i'd rather avoid 2 'underpowered' toys too (though i also prefer to wring every last drop out of a car).
i've had another thought on the Lotus - upgrade to an Evora after the Caterham has arrived. Evora could replace the Elise and one of our barges. That's the argument for swmbo...
i'm leaning towards the SS R. if nothing else it will hold its own more on the big tracks (ring & Spa).
I do believe power (and torque) makes people lazy, but 180 isn't quite in same league as your 230 - that's more than an R400.
R300 is a classic and quite pricey secondhand, so a new SS R that's always been mine and will be a keeper is appealing.
If i'm keeping my Elise i'd rather avoid 2 'underpowered' toys too (though i also prefer to wring every last drop out of a car).
i've had another thought on the Lotus - upgrade to an Evora after the Caterham has arrived. Evora could replace the Elise and one of our barges. That's the argument for swmbo...
framerateuk said:
Andy, what replacement dipstick did you get? Mine seems pretty safe but the last thing I'd want is a ceased engine!
So be warned this is an expensive fix. I went the route of securing a velcro strap round the dipstick eyelet and securing it 
Worth reading the graduate information which I have re-produced below from http://www.graduates.org.uk/forum.asp:
Yes Sigma engine we had issues at the start of the year , quite a fresh engine and i could see from in the car that the engine was breathing quite hard by the vapor via the bonnet vents / catch tank breathers , we were advised to put more holes in the top of the catch tank to lower the engine back pressure in the crank case , this together with running lower oil levels and we are no longer A/ Throwing oil into the tank and B/ not getting the back pressure build up.
SigMax oil: I have also heard it said that the crankcase pressure issue can be caused by using the wrong oil; Caterham/Ford recommend one particular oil and only this should be used.
Nick F on 05 July 2013 at 12:32
Sigmax Oil Issue
During last year's Caterham Supersport Championship, the first season running the Sigma engine with the Supersport/Sigmax upgrades, we experienced a number of engine failures (including two by yours truly). I don't pretend to understand the chain of events but, under some circumstances, it seems that the crankcase pressure can increase to the extent that the pressure forces the dipstick out of its seating allowing most of the content of the sump to deposit itself in the passenger footwell and down the side of the car. This is followed by a rapid reduction in engine performance, a loud knocking noise as the main bearings fail and a large repair bill. Sadly Dave Pearson seems to have suffered one of the failures at Brands on Saturday which is what has prompted this post. Since suffering this problem we now take two precautions which I recommend to all Sigmax drivers:
1. Check your oil level very regularly and maintain it at or towards the maximum. 2. Tie wrap or use a spring to hold the dipstick in position.
Rick
All this is from people that actually have a clue
Edited by Andy Bell on Thursday 18th July 13:20
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