Discussion
Had a scare yesterday!
I've got a 3R which came with standard 3R wheels in silver with nice chrome wheel nuts.
I've since acquired a set of black speedline wheels from a GTO with track tyres - very handy to have two sets of rims.
Question is, do the speedlines need a different wheel nut to the 3R wheels?
What happened was - second stint at Castle Combe and powering out of Quarry corner suddenly the car squirmed and I had a moment to catch it. Didn't think that it was just a lack of talent by the way it let go, and felt like something had given. Immediate thought was perhaps the tyres were too warm (R888s) but came in immediately. Decided to check the wheel nuts, and on the nearside rear I had 2 (opposite) nuts that were hardly tight at all, and the other 2 were completely lose and able to remove by hand!
Of course I could have been an idiot when fitting the speedlines, but it seems to me that the taper of the chrome nuts for my -3R wheels do not sit well within the speedline wheels. I borrowed a torque wrench and set all nuts to 100 ft/lbs, and no wheels fell off the car before the end of the day. However I need to know whether I'm an idiot because a) I didn't do the nuts up tight enough or b) I fitted the wrong nuts.
Can anyone suggest where I can order or buy new wheel nuts and what I need to get? Strangely I have two types of chromed nuts fitted to my car - longer on the nearside (the problem side yesterday) and shorter on the offside. I prefer the longer nut as its easier to get the spanner on. Thanks.
I've got a 3R which came with standard 3R wheels in silver with nice chrome wheel nuts.
I've since acquired a set of black speedline wheels from a GTO with track tyres - very handy to have two sets of rims.
Question is, do the speedlines need a different wheel nut to the 3R wheels?
What happened was - second stint at Castle Combe and powering out of Quarry corner suddenly the car squirmed and I had a moment to catch it. Didn't think that it was just a lack of talent by the way it let go, and felt like something had given. Immediate thought was perhaps the tyres were too warm (R888s) but came in immediately. Decided to check the wheel nuts, and on the nearside rear I had 2 (opposite) nuts that were hardly tight at all, and the other 2 were completely lose and able to remove by hand!
Of course I could have been an idiot when fitting the speedlines, but it seems to me that the taper of the chrome nuts for my -3R wheels do not sit well within the speedline wheels. I borrowed a torque wrench and set all nuts to 100 ft/lbs, and no wheels fell off the car before the end of the day. However I need to know whether I'm an idiot because a) I didn't do the nuts up tight enough or b) I fitted the wrong nuts.
Can anyone suggest where I can order or buy new wheel nuts and what I need to get? Strangely I have two types of chromed nuts fitted to my car - longer on the nearside (the problem side yesterday) and shorter on the offside. I prefer the longer nut as its easier to get the spanner on. Thanks.
I would give Speedlines a call http://www.speedlinecorse.co.uk/
I had the same thing recently, I fitted the wheels with a friend, torqued to 120 btw. Drove to Spa and several spirited drives. On my way with the wife for a meal and the car was making a nasty noise from the rear and started to loose brakes. Stopped had a look, gave the wheel a shake and all seemed ok, limped home and got the car recovered to SWLC where they found the rear wheel hanging off!!!! The wheel was so loose it was pushing the brake calliper piston in, hence lack of brakes......not good.
With ANY powder coated Alloy, CHECK THE NUTS!!!! 120 while your at it hub nut to 240iirc.
Now have a nice shinny torque spanner in my tool box!!!
Edit to add, you are not allowed to powder coat lorry wheels for this very reason, the powder coat can crack and fall away allowing the nuts to loosen!!
I had the same thing recently, I fitted the wheels with a friend, torqued to 120 btw. Drove to Spa and several spirited drives. On my way with the wife for a meal and the car was making a nasty noise from the rear and started to loose brakes. Stopped had a look, gave the wheel a shake and all seemed ok, limped home and got the car recovered to SWLC where they found the rear wheel hanging off!!!! The wheel was so loose it was pushing the brake calliper piston in, hence lack of brakes......not good.
With ANY powder coated Alloy, CHECK THE NUTS!!!! 120 while your at it hub nut to 240iirc.
Now have a nice shinny torque spanner in my tool box!!!
Edit to add, you are not allowed to powder coat lorry wheels for this very reason, the powder coat can crack and fall away allowing the nuts to loosen!!
Edited by wessexrfc on Saturday 20th July 16:02
I've had a good look at both wheels. The 3R wheels have a less pronounced taper, and the taper on the bolts is approx. 45 degrees.
The speedlines have a more acute taper, suggesting the appropriate nut needs a 'sharper' taper to mate correctly.
I've concluded that only a narrow ring of metal was making contact. That coupled with the fact that my speedlines had recently been refurbished gives me no surprise that one worked lose under extreme load. On inspection, some paint/ powder coat has flaked away inside the nut recesses on the wheel in question. I'll be getting some emery paper to it before I fit again with correct nuts. Time to buy a torque wrench too.
The speedlines have a more acute taper, suggesting the appropriate nut needs a 'sharper' taper to mate correctly.
I've concluded that only a narrow ring of metal was making contact. That coupled with the fact that my speedlines had recently been refurbished gives me no surprise that one worked lose under extreme load. On inspection, some paint/ powder coat has flaked away inside the nut recesses on the wheel in question. I'll be getting some emery paper to it before I fit again with correct nuts. Time to buy a torque wrench too.
I've taken photo of all three (Noble 3R/400, Richbrook, Speedline)but uploading isn't working at the moment! NOW FIXED
All three have the 60deg taper (Jarcy, if yours are 45 maybe they are not originals)of the same depth. The Speedlines have a parallel spigot extending about 5mm beyond the taper and they won't fit the original Noble wheels as the diameter of the bolt hole is too small.
From a bit of google research the extension on the Speedlines is a way of gaining additional engagement on the stud thread. Tried and Speedlines take 10 turns to finger tight whereas the Noble/Richbrook are 7 which makes sense 5mm on a 1.5mm pitch giving just over three turns.
Reading further general practice and MSA regs say engagement should be 1.5 x stud diameter so even the Speedlines don't strictly meet that so fitting longer studs might be the ultimate solution!
All three have the 60deg taper (Jarcy, if yours are 45 maybe they are not originals)of the same depth. The Speedlines have a parallel spigot extending about 5mm beyond the taper and they won't fit the original Noble wheels as the diameter of the bolt hole is too small.
From a bit of google research the extension on the Speedlines is a way of gaining additional engagement on the stud thread. Tried and Speedlines take 10 turns to finger tight whereas the Noble/Richbrook are 7 which makes sense 5mm on a 1.5mm pitch giving just over three turns.
Reading further general practice and MSA regs say engagement should be 1.5 x stud diameter so even the Speedlines don't strictly meet that so fitting longer studs might be the ultimate solution!
Edited by Rob_W on Sunday 21st July 09:29
Edited by Rob_W on Sunday 21st July 13:10
Rob, that's perfect thanks. I estimated 45 degrees, but on closer inspection I was wrong.
It seems that I have 8 x standard Noble M12/400 nuts and 8 x something else (similar to Richbrook but not identical). I'd like to acquire 8 more of the latter ones as the extra length is handy and looks good too.
I see the difference with the Speedlines, and will ensure that I get hold of 16x of these. Maybe the extensions on the nuts is the crucial element to get them seated properly.
Here's my nuts
It seems that I have 8 x standard Noble M12/400 nuts and 8 x something else (similar to Richbrook but not identical). I'd like to acquire 8 more of the latter ones as the extra length is handy and looks good too.
I see the difference with the Speedlines, and will ensure that I get hold of 16x of these. Maybe the extensions on the nuts is the crucial element to get them seated properly.
Here's my nuts
The stud showing should always be more than it's width, this is a standard ISO spec, and is good practice and common sence. I couldnt believe how bad the noble arrangement was, When i had new wheels made I had them counterbored with a shoulder then used socket head nuts that use all of the stud, vertualy up to the hubs.
I've always just used the original noble nuts on both compomotives and speedlines. They've never come loose or anything but agree now I've had a look the speedlines nuts will hold more threads.
Msa regs also say the nuts should be steel, so the richbrook type aren't acceptable. Or any lightweight nuts I guess.
Msa regs also say the nuts should be steel, so the richbrook type aren't acceptable. Or any lightweight nuts I guess.
Adrian W said:
The stud showing should always be more than it's width, this is a standard ISO spec, and is good practice and common sence. I couldnt believe how bad the noble arrangement was, When i had new wheels made I had them counterbored with a shoulder then used socket head nuts that use all of the stud, vertualy up to the hubs.
+1OK, so I'm still new to Noble ownership, but it seems that the spare rims I bought which were OEM with the earlier M12s are not called Speedlines.
So my 3R came with these rims that I use with road tyres:
And the spare rims with track tyres are these:
It's these latter rims that I've had a problem with the wheel nuts coming lose.
Is it just that I hadn't torqued them up sufficiently perhaps?
Do these rims have a name?
If anyone is interested, I purchased a set of 16 (well 17 in fact) Speedline nuts, which unfortunately do not fit these rims as the shank won't fit inside the hole. If anyone wants the correct nut for their speedlines, then please let me know.
Incidentally I've since learnt that the Speedlines were acquired by this forum on a group-buy as a replacement for all of your buckled 3R wheels. Such as this:
So my 3R came with these rims that I use with road tyres:
And the spare rims with track tyres are these:
It's these latter rims that I've had a problem with the wheel nuts coming lose.
Is it just that I hadn't torqued them up sufficiently perhaps?
Do these rims have a name?
If anyone is interested, I purchased a set of 16 (well 17 in fact) Speedline nuts, which unfortunately do not fit these rims as the shank won't fit inside the hole. If anyone wants the correct nut for their speedlines, then please let me know.
Incidentally I've since learnt that the Speedlines were acquired by this forum on a group-buy as a replacement for all of your buckled 3R wheels. Such as this:
The top photo is the 12 spoke 3R/M400 wheel of the later cars that some have had problems with buckling and stress cracking. The lower photo is the earlier wheel found on the 2.5 and 3ltr GTO before the 3R, which I think most people feel is stronger. Looks like the earlier wheel has been powder coated black. This could be a problem, what have you torqued the wheels to?? Should be 120 iirc.
wessexrfc said:
The top photo is the 12 spoke 3R/M400 wheel of the later cars that some have had problems with buckling and stress cracking. The lower photo is the earlier wheel found on the 2.5 and 3ltr GTO before the 3R, which I think most people feel is stronger. Looks like the earlier wheel has been powder coated black. This could be a problem, what have you torqued the wheels to?? Should be 120 iirc.
Lets call them "3R" wheels and "GTO" wheels. The second photo is not of my actual GTO wheels, but mine are identical and powder coated black too. I'll just ensure that the standard nuts are torqued up to 120 ft/lbs and ensure that any powder coating within the nut recesses is removed. Thanks for your help.
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