First suspension improvements to (rubber bumper) MGBGT?
Discussion
Right, as I've mentioned in the past, my Father-in-law has a late model MGBGT with a chrome bumper conversion which has been a road-worthy work-in-progress, with a bit of body panel (inc. sills), suspension, brakes and some electrical work required.
Suspension-wise, there are ARBs front and rear and no lowering blocks on the rear springs. We're assuming that the ride height is still standard (the lower arms appear to be horizontal with the car on the ground)
He's fitted various new bushes and new lower arms at the front. The steering is now far lighter, more pleasant and the car drives and handles surprisingly well for a 1970s-de-specced 1960s car ...in the dry. In the wet, definitely not (ok, let's not mention the very old, plastic tyres...)
I really enjoy driving the car.
Assuming that I can persuade the purchase of a set of Uniroyal RainExpert or the like in the near future, What is the simplest, most effective method of lowering the suspension and possibly sharpening up the handling without sacrificing comfort? Of course, if it were mine I'd be inclined to take it a bit further.
Engine-wise, it does go well enough to keep up with the traffic (and can even overtake columns of 'sheep' following slow trucks -"It's not about the car") , although there's probably not as much performance(using a fair bit of throttle, but short-shifting, rather than brutally red-lining it and doing drag starts. It runs out of ooomph at higher revs anyway) as my wife's fairly pedestrian 1.2 Fabia -there should have been more when the car was new. Again, if it were mine, I'd be inclined to give the carbs a full strip-down & clean-out, whip the head off to look at the valves and (possibly) put it on a rolling road to see what the mixture is doing and what sort of power it is kicking out.
Cheers.
Suspension-wise, there are ARBs front and rear and no lowering blocks on the rear springs. We're assuming that the ride height is still standard (the lower arms appear to be horizontal with the car on the ground)
He's fitted various new bushes and new lower arms at the front. The steering is now far lighter, more pleasant and the car drives and handles surprisingly well for a 1970s-de-specced 1960s car ...in the dry. In the wet, definitely not (ok, let's not mention the very old, plastic tyres...)
I really enjoy driving the car.
Assuming that I can persuade the purchase of a set of Uniroyal RainExpert or the like in the near future, What is the simplest, most effective method of lowering the suspension and possibly sharpening up the handling without sacrificing comfort? Of course, if it were mine I'd be inclined to take it a bit further.
Engine-wise, it does go well enough to keep up with the traffic (and can even overtake columns of 'sheep' following slow trucks -"It's not about the car") , although there's probably not as much performance(using a fair bit of throttle, but short-shifting, rather than brutally red-lining it and doing drag starts. It runs out of ooomph at higher revs anyway) as my wife's fairly pedestrian 1.2 Fabia -there should have been more when the car was new. Again, if it were mine, I'd be inclined to give the carbs a full strip-down & clean-out, whip the head off to look at the valves and (possibly) put it on a rolling road to see what the mixture is doing and what sort of power it is kicking out.
Cheers.
Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 22 July 21:04
Suspension, best mod is the Frontline "wedge" that reduces the caster, which will lighten the steering and improve wet grip too.
Engine. Best bet is for the head to be converted for unleaded and gas flowed - rolling road is unecessary - rebuild the carbs and fit electronic ignition. A good exhaust should improve things too.
Please pm for any further help.
Engine. Best bet is for the head to be converted for unleaded and gas flowed - rolling road is unecessary - rebuild the carbs and fit electronic ignition. A good exhaust should improve things too.
Please pm for any further help.
V8 FOU said:
Engine. Best bet is for the head to be converted for unleaded and gas flowed - rolling road is unecessary - rebuild the carbs and fit electronic ignition. A good exhaust should improve things too.
Please pm for any further help.
I'd save the PM's.Please pm for any further help.
"Rolling Road Unnecessary"? Singularly the most ill informed piece of advice anyone can give to another enthusiast rebuilding an engine for performance gain.
Like giving and orchestra a decent set of instruments and then asking them to play without tuning them up beforehand.
I've seen engines run p!ss weak after the mods mentioned - lean enough to destroy piston crowns and/or mixture seize.
I'd advocate a rolling road session with someone that knows SU's and MGB's in particular. Try The Pitstop at Brize Norton if you are in the Oxfordshire area.
Well, after 40+ years of doing this sort of stuff!
S'funny, how DID we manage 30 years ago building high performance A and B series engines plus XK engines, when rolling roads were numbering single figure in the whole country? How did all the racers manage? Too many people are slaves to the rolling road. Fine for injection and ecu controlled engines - but a simple thing like a B series? A gas analyser helps. Experience is the key for any setting up.
I would be interested to know the previous poster's experience in such things before he condemns advice given.....
S'funny, how DID we manage 30 years ago building high performance A and B series engines plus XK engines, when rolling roads were numbering single figure in the whole country? How did all the racers manage? Too many people are slaves to the rolling road. Fine for injection and ecu controlled engines - but a simple thing like a B series? A gas analyser helps. Experience is the key for any setting up.
I would be interested to know the previous poster's experience in such things before he condemns advice given.....
V8 FOU said:
Well, after 40+ years of doing this sort of stuff!
S'funny, how DID we manage 30 years ago building high performance A and B series engines plus XK engines,
The same as now, a bit of hose pipe or a stethoscope, an ear, driving it and even checking colour of the plugs, I've even gone as far as using a carb balancer. Every time I've used a rolling road and an expert I end up with a broken engine not long after.S'funny, how DID we manage 30 years ago building high performance A and B series engines plus XK engines,
jagracer said:
he same as now, a bit of hose pipe or a stethoscope, an ear, driving it and even checking colour of the plugs, I've even gone as far as using a carb balancer. Every time I've used a rolling road and an expert I end up with a broken engine not long after.
Good man!The OP isn't racing his car FFS. Do those RR experts swap/grind the needles? Err, no.
I trust the bit of hose pipe is a fully approved one!
Thanks chaps.
I'll look into the wedge idea. Any other suggestions for the suspension? After lowering, I've read about softening the rear in roll (removing the rear ARB?) and fitting a thicker front ARB.
Engine-wise, the head has been converted to unleaded in the past, I believe. It's probably not been 'ported' though. It seems to runs out of puff at higher rpm, although 'drive-ability' would be more important to my Father-in-law than a peaky delivery.
-I don't see a problem with rolling roads. Just because people managed without them in the past doesn't mean that they're not a useful tool.
I'll look into the wedge idea. Any other suggestions for the suspension? After lowering, I've read about softening the rear in roll (removing the rear ARB?) and fitting a thicker front ARB.
Engine-wise, the head has been converted to unleaded in the past, I believe. It's probably not been 'ported' though. It seems to runs out of puff at higher rpm, although 'drive-ability' would be more important to my Father-in-law than a peaky delivery.
-I don't see a problem with rolling roads. Just because people managed without them in the past doesn't mean that they're not a useful tool.
Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 23 July 23:10
V8 FOU said:
Do those RR experts swap/grind the needles? Err, no.
you've been to the wrong places by the sound of it, yes the SU carb experts do, if requiredfor a road car a RR tune-up should only be done after the basic tune-up procedures and the basic procedures are full and proper regular servicing, maintenance and repair, for the whole car, plus regular use (frequent use even better)
a service for the whole car is the best tune up you can start with, or possibly even need, it's the foundation without which you can't successfully move on to further tuning
but this is all future stuff
for excellent value (and not high cost) rolling road tuning of a MGB I can, along with many others, highly and strongly recommend Peter Burgess who also modifies B head and builds B engines (but doesn't waste time on building a fancy web site) - http://www.peter-burgess.com/
as for the suspension
. make sure all the bushes have been changed not just some, I like Super-Flex myself
. if you have LA dampers check that all four are fully working and no part of them is loose or fixings to the car loose
. keep everything well greased and often
. check all nuts, bolts and fittings are not loose (especially U-bolts at rear)
. tyres effect the braking, steering, handling ride comfort and noise - give getting new tyres some priority, that then covers balance and possibly alignment if appropriate at the time
. note this is all basic stuff and mostly covered by regular serving - but - the basics are often overlooked when looking at sexy (sometimes unnecessary) suspension 'upgrades/improvements'
. 'upgrades/improvements' can sometimes be taken too far and spoil the pleasantness of a road going B
good luck
engine performance stick in 97 but run on Tesco 99 or when on offer Shell V-power (now silly extra bit Nitro+)
do thorough engine oil (drain as hot and for as long as possible to get as much old oil and crud out as possible) and filter changes and change or keep clean the air filters
if you got an oil cooler fitted also fit an oil thermostat to the lines in and out
when you can afford it ditch the usually very worn (and worn after only 3 years from new) dissy completely and install a GOOD quality fully (not just head) electronic dissy (I favour 123) and find stable performance and running
only buy FL stuff from a somewhere like the big suppliers to have usable warranty
Edited by nta16 on Wednesday 24th July 13:46
I build performance A-series engines and race A-series engines. I believe in setting them up on rollers using every modern piece of kit to get the car running correctly. Funnily enough I've found it aids drivability on both road and track.
You appear to still listen down the trumpets with a stethoscope and shout - No. 4 needs more air, yes... that's it
You appear to still listen down the trumpets with a stethoscope and shout - No. 4 needs more air, yes... that's it
nta16 said:
V8 FOU said:
Do those RR experts swap/grind the needles? Err, no.
you've been to the wrong places by the sound of it, yes the SU carb experts do, if requiredfor a road car a RR tune-up should only be done after the basic tune-up procedures and the basic procedures are full and proper regular servicing, maintenance and repair, for the whole car, plus regular use (frequent use even better)
FWDRacer said:
Find somebody that knows what they are doing. Peter Burgess / Ralph Saunders / Peter Baldwin etc. All of them know when to get the wet and dry out...
as I have an A-series engine I've been to the two Peters (plus another RR but don't know Ralph Sanders)others may have found different and I've put this before and upset his fans and I do accept it could have been just him having an 'off' day but on the expensive occasion I went to Peter Baldwin I wasn't very impressed with the result after paying for two and a half hours
this was confirmed for me by my first visit to Peter Burgess who was better by about a factor of nine, about three times less in cost and about three times better results so excellent value and results with Peter Burgess
that's my experience
Go steady on upgrading the front ARB - I went for the 7/8" one, flattened out the cornering but kept a bag full of understeer along with it.
Not heard of wedge to reduce the caster angle... that'd be a welcome change, especially in the wet, always found it very tip-toe-y on wet roundabouts. Think I need to investigate.
Hard/Race bushes will make your teeth want to drop out and your fingers fizz after a motorway drive too - I'd expect some regular superflex ones to sharpen things up sufficiently, without sacrificing comfort too much - yes, I do wish I'd done that.
As with most MGBs, the best upgrade is probably to renew all the suspension parts completely, then see if you're happy with that. Ensuring the sills are 100% and it's not flexing a load more than it should is also a good move!
For the engine, new valve seats so you can run UL fuel and some mild porting while you're in there is a sensible upgrade, rebuilding the SUs isn't too drastic a job, you can get all the parts... as for tuning/balancing - I seem to recall using a gas analyser and cutting 2cyl at a time so I could do each carb separately, then listening to the pair with a length of pipe to balacnce them.
Electronic ingition removes the need to fettle regularly as well, although I ran the standard points/condenser then carried a whole spare distributor in the boot (as you do!) - however, if it isn't broken, doesn't use gallons of oil, and returns reasonable MPG, just getting it tuned and running an additive will give many miles before any real work is needed - I'm assuming it's not a 10K per year car?
I'd only go the rolling road direction if building it up from new with a more hairy cam, extensively ported head etc etc... but I'd probably get all excited and go for an electronic injection setup running throttle bodies at that point, becuase it's interesting more than any other reason - cheaper to look at engine swaps by that stage I expect...!
Have fun
Not heard of wedge to reduce the caster angle... that'd be a welcome change, especially in the wet, always found it very tip-toe-y on wet roundabouts. Think I need to investigate.
Hard/Race bushes will make your teeth want to drop out and your fingers fizz after a motorway drive too - I'd expect some regular superflex ones to sharpen things up sufficiently, without sacrificing comfort too much - yes, I do wish I'd done that.
As with most MGBs, the best upgrade is probably to renew all the suspension parts completely, then see if you're happy with that. Ensuring the sills are 100% and it's not flexing a load more than it should is also a good move!
For the engine, new valve seats so you can run UL fuel and some mild porting while you're in there is a sensible upgrade, rebuilding the SUs isn't too drastic a job, you can get all the parts... as for tuning/balancing - I seem to recall using a gas analyser and cutting 2cyl at a time so I could do each carb separately, then listening to the pair with a length of pipe to balacnce them.
Electronic ingition removes the need to fettle regularly as well, although I ran the standard points/condenser then carried a whole spare distributor in the boot (as you do!) - however, if it isn't broken, doesn't use gallons of oil, and returns reasonable MPG, just getting it tuned and running an additive will give many miles before any real work is needed - I'm assuming it's not a 10K per year car?
I'd only go the rolling road direction if building it up from new with a more hairy cam, extensively ported head etc etc... but I'd probably get all excited and go for an electronic injection setup running throttle bodies at that point, becuase it's interesting more than any other reason - cheaper to look at engine swaps by that stage I expect...!
Have fun
Edited by SWH on Wednesday 24th July 13:54
SWH said:
Go steady on upgrading the front ARB - I went for the 7/8" one, flattened out the cornering but kept a bag full of understeer along with it
I had wondered about that myself. As it is, the car feels fairly neutral in the dry. As I've mentioned in the past, the handling and road-holding is far better than I'd expected it to be before I drove it, even on shiny, plastic tyres. The steering is much better since the front suspension has been sorted-out.SWH said:
Ensuring the sills are 100% and it's not flexing a load more than it should is also a good move!
Yes, that was one of the jobs that has been done to the car.swh said:
I'm assuming it's not a 10K per year car?
No, although now that it goes, stops and turns adequately, it is getting used frequently and for some long journeys, which is a good thing. It really needs that set of new tyres though. swh said:
I'd only go the rolling road direction if building it up from new with a more hairy cam, extensively ported head etc etc... but I'd probably get all excited and go for an electronic injection setup running throttle bodies at that point, becuase it's interesting more than any other reason - cheaper to look at engine swaps by that stage I expect...!
Quite. Rest assured, it'll will never go near a rolling road, although I think it might benefit after everything else has been sorted out. The head has, as far I've been told, been converted to unleaded.
The carbs have been balanced, although they've not been stripped down and cleaned-out. Again, if it were my car they would have been.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 25th July 21:55
MC Bodge said:
Quite. Rest assured, it'll will never go near a rolling road, although I think it might benefit after everything else has been sorted out.
I'm not sure what that means but the vast majority of classics would never see a RR and many of them run very well or well - the majority from my experience don't run as well as their owners think and it's not to do with visiting a RRthe owners accepted whatever standard their classic runs at because they've not driven a similar model where the whole car is in good mechanical condition and well set up and regularly used to compare how their car could or should be
good tyres transform a car
nta16 said:
the owners accepted whatever standard their classic runs at because they've not driven a similar model where the whole car is in good mechanical condition and well set up and regularly used to compare how their car could or should be
Yes, I agree. Rolling roads aren't a necessity, but I would be interested in running it on one to check mixtures etc. at different rpm -if it were my car- as I think that the engine could performing better.nta16 said:
good tyres transform a car
I don't disagree, my bikes and cars have good rubber fitted, but the MGB in this case is not my car. I just drive it sometimes and try to encourage the owner.MC Bodge said:
Yes, I agree. Rolling roads aren't a necessity, but I would be interested in running it on one to check mixtures etc. at different rpm -if it were my car- as I think that the engine could performing better.
sorry I didn't make myself clear, I'm all for RR tune-ip after full and proper servicing, maintenance and repair of the whole car and a period of frequent driving (see my posts above)check/ adjust/set-up in this order - tappets, CB points, plugs, timing, mixture if you need to adjust at any point in the line you may also have to adjust the items after
MC Bodge said:
... the MGB in this case is not my car. I just drive it sometimes and try to encourage the owner.
sorry I didn't know that (or missed it or forgot sorry)well done to you, keep up the encouragement
Thanks for the info, folks.
As I said, I'm trying to persuade the owner to make the car as good as it could be (within budge constraints) and pushing slightly against a resistance to 'modifying' things, although there seems to be some interest in lowering an inch or so.
New tyres are the the first/most important thing in my view, though, and I've been campaigning for them for a while.
Given the wet weather behaviour of the car, having had good experiences of Uniroyal, it seems to me that a set of Rain Expert would be ideal.
What width/profile would be good fitted to a set of Rostyles?
As I said, I'm trying to persuade the owner to make the car as good as it could be (within budge constraints) and pushing slightly against a resistance to 'modifying' things, although there seems to be some interest in lowering an inch or so.
New tyres are the the first/most important thing in my view, though, and I've been campaigning for them for a while.
Given the wet weather behaviour of the car, having had good experiences of Uniroyal, it seems to me that a set of Rain Expert would be ideal.
What width/profile would be good fitted to a set of Rostyles?
BGTs ran on 165/80/14 tyres but as the Uniroyal Rain Experts don't come in that size you could follow the lead of many others and get fitted 175/70/14 (84 T) as they're only slightly wider and shorter and only give a 3% difference in speedo reading - shows 70 mph when actual speed is 67.85 mph (that may increase or decrease the existing speedo error)
Uniroyal Rain Expert tyres - http://www.uniroyal-tyres.co.uk/generator/www/uk/e...
Tyre size calculator (half way down page but the rest of this page and the other 3 have interesting stuff) - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html
the next bit I got moaned at when I last put it but I put it for those that don't known or have forgot - take it easy on new tyres for the first 100 miles (200 in rain) as they could be 'greasy' from new and recheck the torque (60 lb/ft / 81 Nm) on all the wheel nuts after about 30 miles
back to suspension and handling – before you consider lowering check everything is OK on the car
good new tyres over old and/or worn tyres will improve braking, steering, handling and ride comfort and noise anyway
changing the rest of the suspension bushing will help as will making sure all four dampers are working well (might just mean a top up or recon from a decent place as most swap over recons you buy are poor quality and might only last 18 months), keeping the front greased up and check all nuts, bolts and fittings are not loose - especially on the four dampers and U-bolts on axle and springs
Uniroyal Rain Expert tyres - http://www.uniroyal-tyres.co.uk/generator/www/uk/e...
Tyre size calculator (half way down page but the rest of this page and the other 3 have interesting stuff) - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html
the next bit I got moaned at when I last put it but I put it for those that don't known or have forgot - take it easy on new tyres for the first 100 miles (200 in rain) as they could be 'greasy' from new and recheck the torque (60 lb/ft / 81 Nm) on all the wheel nuts after about 30 miles
back to suspension and handling – before you consider lowering check everything is OK on the car
good new tyres over old and/or worn tyres will improve braking, steering, handling and ride comfort and noise anyway
changing the rest of the suspension bushing will help as will making sure all four dampers are working well (might just mean a top up or recon from a decent place as most swap over recons you buy are poor quality and might only last 18 months), keeping the front greased up and check all nuts, bolts and fittings are not loose - especially on the four dampers and U-bolts on axle and springs
nta16 said:
BGTs ran on 165/80/14 tyres but as the Uniroyal Rain Experts don't come in that size you could follow the lead of many others and get fitted 175/70/14 (84 T)
Thanksnta16 said:
take it easy on new tyres for the first 100 miles (200 in rain) as they could be 'greasy' from new and recheck the torque (60 lb/ft / 81 Nm) on all the wheel nuts after about 30 miles
Yes, although less of an issue on car tyres than on motorbikes, in my experience. Having said that, even bike tyres scrub in fairly quickly if you bear in mind that you are on new tyres. So long as you don't hoon off down the road from the tyre fitter and expect to take the first bend very fast, you should be ok.back to suspension and handling – before you consider lowering check everything is OK on the car
nta16 said:
making sure all four dampers are working well (might just mean a top up or recon from a decent place as most swap over recons you buy are poor quality and might only last 18 months), keeping the front greased up and check all nuts, bolts and fittings are not loose - especially on the four dampers and U-bolts on axle and springs
Cheers. ps.Those lever arm dampers seem quite unusual.
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