Captain and 1st Officer dead - can you land it?
Discussion
Apologies to the old-timers on here, as I remember we have had a similar thread before. But - I can't find it, and anyway I now post with new information.
I'm a keen amateur aeroplane buff. By that I mean I have read quite a few books on the subject, hang about on PPrune a bit, have two mates who are commercial pilots, and hence have enough knowledge and information about flying modern jets as to be absolutely lethal
In my dreams, I have often wondered about the scenario of finding myself in the position alluded to in the thread title, as I am sure many other people have.
I have liked to think (for fun) that my limited understanding of cockpit instruments, controls including throttles, stick and pedals and what they do, VOR-DME, speed, radalt height, glide slope, configuration including slats, flaps and EPR, when to lower gear, how to initiate reverse thrust, where the brakes are, and the fact that most modern stuff has decent autopilot and autoland...means that should my fantasy become real someday, that with the help of ATC I could actually bring a commercial multi-engined jet to the tarmac, devoid of death and destruction.
But previous threads on here have argues otherwise, and I can see why - it's a multitude of complication, and that's assuming you have decent visibility, no wind shear, and it's not a night-time approach to somewhere difficult and hideous.
However, I watched an episode of 'Mythbusters' today which re-ignited my idea about this topic.
Basically, both Adam and Jamie were put in an Airbus simulator, and left to try to land it. They both crashed heinously.
However, when they tried again and were talked down in detail by someone on the radio, they both not only landed successfully, but also gently and even bang on the centre line of the runway.
So - do we still scorn the fact that an amateur can't land a commercial jet - or do we reckon it might actually be possible?
Over to you
I'm a keen amateur aeroplane buff. By that I mean I have read quite a few books on the subject, hang about on PPrune a bit, have two mates who are commercial pilots, and hence have enough knowledge and information about flying modern jets as to be absolutely lethal
In my dreams, I have often wondered about the scenario of finding myself in the position alluded to in the thread title, as I am sure many other people have.
I have liked to think (for fun) that my limited understanding of cockpit instruments, controls including throttles, stick and pedals and what they do, VOR-DME, speed, radalt height, glide slope, configuration including slats, flaps and EPR, when to lower gear, how to initiate reverse thrust, where the brakes are, and the fact that most modern stuff has decent autopilot and autoland...means that should my fantasy become real someday, that with the help of ATC I could actually bring a commercial multi-engined jet to the tarmac, devoid of death and destruction.
But previous threads on here have argues otherwise, and I can see why - it's a multitude of complication, and that's assuming you have decent visibility, no wind shear, and it's not a night-time approach to somewhere difficult and hideous.
However, I watched an episode of 'Mythbusters' today which re-ignited my idea about this topic.
Basically, both Adam and Jamie were put in an Airbus simulator, and left to try to land it. They both crashed heinously.
However, when they tried again and were talked down in detail by someone on the radio, they both not only landed successfully, but also gently and even bang on the centre line of the runway.
So - do we still scorn the fact that an amateur can't land a commercial jet - or do we reckon it might actually be possible?
Over to you
Do you know how to work the radios? If it was mid atlantic could you contact someone? What about if you were having to use HF or datalink?
Do you think all those different ATC centers have type rated people for every type on standby just incase this event occurs?
Ive been flying large jets for years and I'd struggle to set up another type for an auto land and stop it on the runway. Forget a manual approach and landing.
I'm sure all the usual PH have a go heros will be along to say how easy it would be though.
Do you think all those different ATC centers have type rated people for every type on standby just incase this event occurs?
Ive been flying large jets for years and I'd struggle to set up another type for an auto land and stop it on the runway. Forget a manual approach and landing.
I'm sure all the usual PH have a go heros will be along to say how easy it would be though.
Truth is, if the Captain and FO croak, then there are probably relief flight crew in transit, cabin crew, retired flight crew who are simply flying as passengers, pets of flight crew in the hold (tell a Labrador to fly a procedure, nail the ILS, grease it onto the runway and have it at the gate in record time because there's a packet of Schmakos to be had) - all of which are far more likely to save the day than the OP.
Mr_B said:
Has there ever been a situation ( in modern commercial aviation ) where this has happened ? I seem to remember it was a question on QI and I think they said it hadn't, but didn't that Greek airliner crash involve passengers in the cockpit while the pilots were dead or out of it ?
Helios accident - that was pretty tragic - switch left to manual following cabin pressure checks by maintenance, and missed on pre-flight checks by the crew. Aircraft continued to depressurise as it gained height and pilots and just about everyone succumbed to hypoxia. The one remaining person on board (cabin crew member who was training to be a pilot) managed to get into the cockpit but by the time he got there and realised what was going on the plane ran out of fuel and impacted a hill with no survivors. Classic case of all the holes lining up in the cheese. Videos of hypoxia effects in a hyperbaric chamber are pretty crazy.
With a type rated pilot on the radio I reckon I'd be ok(ish!) especially if it had auto land/throttles. Without their assistance then things would get messy very quickly!
I'm not a pilot but have done a few landings (under 100% supervision whilst he shadowed the other stick) and did OK, no chance if I was on my own though! We'd be very dead, very quickly!
I'm not a pilot but have done a few landings (under 100% supervision whilst he shadowed the other stick) and did OK, no chance if I was on my own though! We'd be very dead, very quickly!
I've had a go in a proper flight sim, and played with the detailed simulator add-ons.
Biggest immediate risk IMO, are getting in to the cockpit, and selecting the right button to call the ground. There's a 50/50 chance of calling on the radio, or disconnecting the AP.
After that it depends whose on the ground and what they know.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96248&page=1
Not exactly a text book landing, but they are alive.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2235746/Pa...
Not the exact scenario, but I'm surprised they let someone not in their airline onto the flight deck...
http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/04/14/passeng...
Seems like most of the talking down is by other pilots...
Biggest immediate risk IMO, are getting in to the cockpit, and selecting the right button to call the ground. There's a 50/50 chance of calling on the radio, or disconnecting the AP.
After that it depends whose on the ground and what they know.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96248&page=1
Not exactly a text book landing, but they are alive.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2235746/Pa...
Not the exact scenario, but I'm surprised they let someone not in their airline onto the flight deck...
http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/04/14/passeng...
Seems like most of the talking down is by other pilots...
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