Audi V Porsche
Discussion
The only evidence we have is from when Bentley re-entered the fray, it wasn't the first year they were back that they won.
I'd suspect the same will apply irrespective of what ones heritage is like. I'll need a decent race programme, and development work, to get it right from the Stuttgart boys.
But anyway sod that, move over Audi Daddy's back!
I'd suspect the same will apply irrespective of what ones heritage is like. I'll need a decent race programme, and development work, to get it right from the Stuttgart boys.
But anyway sod that, move over Audi Daddy's back!
ellroy said:
The only evidence we have is from when Bentley re-entered the fray, it wasn't the first year they were back that they won.
I'd suspect the same will apply irrespective of what ones heritage is like. I'll need a decent race programme, and development work, to get it right from the Stuttgart boys.
But anyway sod that, move over Audi Daddy's back!
Not really, Bentley were entered as part of Audi, Audi drivers, teams, etc...I'd suspect the same will apply irrespective of what ones heritage is like. I'll need a decent race programme, and development work, to get it right from the Stuttgart boys.
But anyway sod that, move over Audi Daddy's back!
Porsche aren't entering as part of Audi.
Audi only managed 3rd when they first entered..
Well, 1999 was one of the best years concerning the amount of factory efforts, so 3rd on your debut year is still pretty decent!
I think that Porsche and Audi are allowed to race each other. And as Porsche has already been testing with their 2014 car, they have an advantage. I think they have a fair shot at victory.
I think that Porsche and Audi are allowed to race each other. And as Porsche has already been testing with their 2014 car, they have an advantage. I think they have a fair shot at victory.
I expect the reason an 'official' Audi entry wasn't put in for 2003 was that VAG wanted to close down the Bentley program and needed to win to do that (so face could be kept).
I know everyone likes a good conspiracy - but my point of view would be this.
The ultimate board of VAG will be too worried by balance sheets, efficiencies, revenues and share price to worry about who will win at Le Mans. They are bothered about the results of each part of the group in terms of bottom line and return on investment, but they are not there to micro-manage individual companies.
Porsche and Audi are not the same company. They are entirely seperate companies, with seperate boards and marketing/motorsport departments. Hell, they even have competing products (see TT/Boxster and R8/911). It is there job to produce lots of profit to impress 'Daddy' and justify their existence.
As such they are on their own, both have decided a Le Mans program will be beneficial to their individual goals, and their individual marketing budgets will be taking the brunt of this.
Namely, unless they go to Daddy with a larger startegy (like having the brand graciously pull out in a face saving manner), I think they will be left to it. So long as ONE of them wins I cannot see VAG giving a stuff.
I know everyone likes a good conspiracy - but my point of view would be this.
The ultimate board of VAG will be too worried by balance sheets, efficiencies, revenues and share price to worry about who will win at Le Mans. They are bothered about the results of each part of the group in terms of bottom line and return on investment, but they are not there to micro-manage individual companies.
Porsche and Audi are not the same company. They are entirely seperate companies, with seperate boards and marketing/motorsport departments. Hell, they even have competing products (see TT/Boxster and R8/911). It is there job to produce lots of profit to impress 'Daddy' and justify their existence.
As such they are on their own, both have decided a Le Mans program will be beneficial to their individual goals, and their individual marketing budgets will be taking the brunt of this.
Namely, unless they go to Daddy with a larger startegy (like having the brand graciously pull out in a face saving manner), I think they will be left to it. So long as ONE of them wins I cannot see VAG giving a stuff.
Vocal Minority said:
Sensible stuff
I seem to remember just after the Porsche announcement last year that VAG said that both companies were using their own budgets for the P1 cars so they will be just left to race as they please. Personally, I think that Audi are trying to chase down Porsches win record and Porsche don't want to let Audi take it away from them.
Edited by RobGT81 on Wednesday 7th August 09:10
eps said:
Bentley were entered as part of Audi, Audi drivers, teams,
Audi only managed 3rd when they first entered..
Bentley were not entered as part of Audi, VAG group supported only one factory team, hence Audi were privateers supported by the factory that year. All support and hence drivers went off to Bentley, as has been said, so they could launch the new road cars to a fanfare and then kill the costly programme.Audi only managed 3rd when they first entered..
As for your last point read what I said, that's exactly the point I made. Porsche will need a development programme over about 3 seasons to be fully competitive.
ellroy said:
eps said:
Bentley were entered as part of Audi, Audi drivers, teams,
Audi only managed 3rd when they first entered..
Bentley were not entered as part of Audi, VAG group supported only one factory team, hence Audi were privateers supported by the factory that year. All support and hence drivers went off to Bentley, as has been said, so they could launch the new road cars to a fanfare and then kill the costly programme.Audi only managed 3rd when they first entered..
As for your last point read what I said, that's exactly the point I made. Porsche will need a development programme over about 3 seasons to be fully competitive.
Sorry, I should have added a
to my first post, last point. I thought it was obvious, but apparently not. I remember being on a flight soon after the race that year and discussing the performance of the Audis with someone who supplied parts to Audi, who indicated that they were seething at "only" getting a third place at the 24hrs on their debut. This shows their level of commitment to the 24hrs. They rewrote the rulebook and had some of their innovations banned. They went and got the best and demolished the opposition and have dominated the 24hrs with singular focus.If I were part of a team and got _only_ third place overall at the 24hrs I'd be overjoyed, especially if it was in my debut year as well.
//j17 said:
I'd expect another 2 years of Audi wins while the Porsche project gets up to speed, then for Audi to bow out - I mean how many more cars will they sell by winning yet another Le Mans...
^^^^^^^^For whats it worth I agree. Someone "suggested" to me that Audi/VW were going to have a run at F1 leaving Porsche to go after the GT and Enduro series.
It would be pretty cool to see Audi complete with Mercedes, Renault and that bunch from cheats in Italy.
Rumour has it that Porsche will use a small turbo-charged inline 4-cilinder engine (1.8 - 2.0 litre). Hybrid system I have read nothing about. Don't know if the Williams Hybrid Flywheel system can store 8 MJ of energy and harvest and release it quickly enough. If so, probably (my guess, could be wrong of course) they will use this.
Edited by vincegail on Thursday 8th August 11:28
You know that phillip morris have about 20 brands of tabs? Unilever make 5 or more brands of washing powder?
This is the same. If audi beat porsche, or pirsche beat audi, it doesn't matter. The fact is - merc, bmw, pugeot et all try and fail. It's a classic strategy where they can't lose as long as people see the brands as indpendant, and the competition fair.
Imo, the board of vag will let them fight tooth and nail, derv vs petrol. The winner claims the spoils, the loser blames the rules. Easy.
This is the same. If audi beat porsche, or pirsche beat audi, it doesn't matter. The fact is - merc, bmw, pugeot et all try and fail. It's a classic strategy where they can't lose as long as people see the brands as indpendant, and the competition fair.
Imo, the board of vag will let them fight tooth and nail, derv vs petrol. The winner claims the spoils, the loser blames the rules. Easy.
vincegail said:
Don't know if the Williams Hybrid Flywheel system can store 8 MJ of energy and harvest and release it quickly enough. If so, probably (my guess, could be wrong of course) they will use this.
8MJ per lap at Le Mans, the current systems use about 3.5MJ per lap? The Toyota flux capacitor is certainly up to it, they wanted to use a 1MJ capacity originally before the ACO forced them to 0.5MJ. Edited by vincegail on Thursday 8th August 11:28
They will need to pretty much double the capacity of the flywheel over this years version.
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