How Good can a good Wedge Suspension set up be ?
Discussion
HI All,
Have had the chance to drive a couple of British Classic Cars ( I won't mention the brands as I'm sure that other brands are not available on this forum
) which had well sorted after market suspension upgrades and to be honest they did feel extremely sure footed, balanced and smooth when going into faster corners and gave me a good level of confidence in the cars.
My wedge has the original suspension set up and I'm sure the only tinkering has been failed components over the years. I'm now thinking that my winter project is to sort the suspension and upgrade it all round in order to get the best from the car and more confidence on my part.
So my question is , how good will a good suspension set up be and are there any tried and tested suspension components that are considered the best option ?
I'm thinking Poly bushing all round .
What would be the best shocks ? Are coil overs an option or does it mean significant surgery ?
If separate springs and shocks are the way forward, what are the better brands set up to go for ?
Sorry for multiple questions
Cheers
Jeremy
Have had the chance to drive a couple of British Classic Cars ( I won't mention the brands as I'm sure that other brands are not available on this forum
) which had well sorted after market suspension upgrades and to be honest they did feel extremely sure footed, balanced and smooth when going into faster corners and gave me a good level of confidence in the cars.My wedge has the original suspension set up and I'm sure the only tinkering has been failed components over the years. I'm now thinking that my winter project is to sort the suspension and upgrade it all round in order to get the best from the car and more confidence on my part.
So my question is , how good will a good suspension set up be and are there any tried and tested suspension components that are considered the best option ?
I'm thinking Poly bushing all round .
What would be the best shocks ? Are coil overs an option or does it mean significant surgery ?
If separate springs and shocks are the way forward, what are the better brands set up to go for ?
Sorry for multiple questions
Cheers
Jeremy
I was advised by seperate reputable TVR parts suppliers to only use poly bushes if you are going to track it, The original compounds were fine for 30 years on mine and some still are..I only used superflex on my trailing arms because of the extra horses from the blower...My personal opinion is that TVR got it right to a degree with the original set up..I must say i have blipped corners pretty quick in my old girl and the majority of the time im happy with the ride..Pot-holes and speed humps are just money pits so i try to avoid both..If anything i will hopefully get a drop-link and rose jointed trailing arm upgrade and stiffer front springs..New legs as per TVR spec..If poss..Rear suspension and diff craddle bushes might be replaced for super or poly but thats only because of the supercharger and only if needed...At the minute im driving a hired focus turbo which is like armchair comfort riding on a layer of cotton wool compared to the wedge..I miss you Delilah...
...
...What we need is Ian Jones to pop up and explain how he did the chassis calculations - if he did any 
I did find a learned treatise on the use of normal 'Metalastik' bushes about the 'net somewhere; if the suspension design was done properly then switching to Polyurethane takes the compliance of the bushes out of the calculations and changes just about every other parameter (spring and damper rates etc.).
Of course there are any number of experts on car forums from Alfa to Yugo who have 'switched' and report their car being better than the best handling cars on the planet, but they largely ignore the fact that simply replacing thirty-year-old bushes with new ones of the original type would make a big improvement anyway.
I did find a learned treatise on the use of normal 'Metalastik' bushes about the 'net somewhere; if the suspension design was done properly then switching to Polyurethane takes the compliance of the bushes out of the calculations and changes just about every other parameter (spring and damper rates etc.).
Of course there are any number of experts on car forums from Alfa to Yugo who have 'switched' and report their car being better than the best handling cars on the planet, but they largely ignore the fact that simply replacing thirty-year-old bushes with new ones of the original type would make a big improvement anyway.
Did "sure footed, balanced and smooth" ever apply to a Wedge? Trailing arm or A-frame?
If the bushes, springs and dampers are more than a few years old then change them. Check chassis for cracks. Upgrade the front anti-roll bar bushes and links. Good tyres at the right pressures. Alignment adjustments by someone who understands. End result will be reasonable and generally predictable.
Tyres, alignment and replacement ARB bushes are a cost effective start, I've broken 2 of the Ford type ARB bushes on my car, on the same road but 12 months apart. The clamps for the bushes can crack, leading to one corner dipping on braking which leads you to suspect one front brake caliper.
If the bushes, springs and dampers are more than a few years old then change them. Check chassis for cracks. Upgrade the front anti-roll bar bushes and links. Good tyres at the right pressures. Alignment adjustments by someone who understands. End result will be reasonable and generally predictable.
Tyres, alignment and replacement ARB bushes are a cost effective start, I've broken 2 of the Ford type ARB bushes on my car, on the same road but 12 months apart. The clamps for the bushes can crack, leading to one corner dipping on braking which leads you to suspect one front brake caliper.
hi,
i've got full poly and gaz shocks on. around town it is as uncomfortable as an uncomfortable thing. However around the country lanes and motorways it sticks and handles better than my bog standard Astra sri. Both have goodyears on but the astra takes a bigger size.
anyway thats my experience.
marcus
i've got full poly and gaz shocks on. around town it is as uncomfortable as an uncomfortable thing. However around the country lanes and motorways it sticks and handles better than my bog standard Astra sri. Both have goodyears on but the astra takes a bigger size.
anyway thats my experience.
marcus
Wedg1e said:
Poly bushes create their own set of issues... harsher ride, cracked welds, don't like being stressed hard otherwise they distort out of shape (unlike rubber which can recover).
Fine on a track car or if you have shares in a dental clinic
I can second this .. when I went all Poly a few years ago, it handled like a race car .. stiffer, felt more responsive in the turns.. but downside the ride was a lot harsher, and generally not as comfortable on poor roads.Fine on a track car or if you have shares in a dental clinic
In the end, I had the lot replaced with original rubber bushes and the car was once again nicer to drive. (this is with no upgraded suspension, all standard springs and dampers)
I would echo what everyone else is saying- Re-new all the suspension bushes for new original spec, make sure your springs & dampers are good and get the suspension set up by someone who knows what they're doing - then if you think it's still not good enough think about upgrades.
You have to bear in mind that these are 30+ years old cars whose design was probably drawn up in the late 70's - they are not going to match a more modern counterpart in ride comfort, grip etc. no matter what you do to them. Keep us posted on your findings please as ill be interested what you discover
You have to bear in mind that these are 30+ years old cars whose design was probably drawn up in the late 70's - they are not going to match a more modern counterpart in ride comfort, grip etc. no matter what you do to them. Keep us posted on your findings please as ill be interested what you discover
I have also had the trailing arm bushes replaced with "original" spec and my car handles very well.
I think as said above TVR got it fairly spot on with the design, there is designed to be a bit of "give" in the bushes to allow a bit of comfort.
Another thing that can be a "mistake" (on trailing arm cars anyway?) is to tighten the bushes with no load on the suspension and then just drop the car, unfortunately (if I understand it correctly) this "pre stresses" the rubber and can make for a less than ideal ride and the rubber doesn't last as long. In effect the rubber is then trying to make the rear ride higher than designed.
The low(ish?) ride height, wide track, and lightness of a TVR does make them corner quite well, I have taken corners in the TVR with no drama, that in my X300 Jag (XJ Sport) I wouldn't even dare try at similar speeds.
Obviously a bit of chalk and cheese but it does go to show that the TVR setup is actually better than you'd think, when its working as it should, obviously if you have 30 year old bushes etc its going to drive like its on jelly!
Just my take on it but I'm no expert.
I think as said above TVR got it fairly spot on with the design, there is designed to be a bit of "give" in the bushes to allow a bit of comfort.
Another thing that can be a "mistake" (on trailing arm cars anyway?) is to tighten the bushes with no load on the suspension and then just drop the car, unfortunately (if I understand it correctly) this "pre stresses" the rubber and can make for a less than ideal ride and the rubber doesn't last as long. In effect the rubber is then trying to make the rear ride higher than designed.
The low(ish?) ride height, wide track, and lightness of a TVR does make them corner quite well, I have taken corners in the TVR with no drama, that in my X300 Jag (XJ Sport) I wouldn't even dare try at similar speeds.
Obviously a bit of chalk and cheese but it does go to show that the TVR setup is actually better than you'd think, when its working as it should, obviously if you have 30 year old bushes etc its going to drive like its on jelly!
Just my take on it but I'm no expert.
Thank you all for the replies really useful and having read through the thread will certainly stick to new rubber bushes and not Poly bushes.
I heed the advice gratefully and am now going to undertake a winter project of replacing shocks, springs and bushes and then see how the Tiv feels.
MY next question is who is a good supplier for wedge suspension parts ? Should I look at slightly uprated springs and adjustable shocks or just stick with standard items ?
Cheers All
Jeremy
I heed the advice gratefully and am now going to undertake a winter project of replacing shocks, springs and bushes and then see how the Tiv feels.
MY next question is who is a good supplier for wedge suspension parts ? Should I look at slightly uprated springs and adjustable shocks or just stick with standard items ?
Cheers All
Jeremy
There are a few specialists usually mentioned when suspension is debated, I've never used any of them so can't comment - other than to say I have heard several stories over the years of people buying new springs and finding the car had the ride height of a monster truck afterwards so it sounds like someone had got something wrong.
I had an Esprit with AVO rear shocks and they were just that: shocking. From the receipt they'd been on the car 18 months; it had sat idle for 10 of them and the shocks were corroded to hell, couldn't move the spring platforms without a lot of work. I tend to stick with Koni shocks; doubtless someone will com along with a horror story about them but I've never had any problems.
What model is your Wedge? Is it trailing-arm or A-frame rear? If it's t-arm it's a lot easier to find replacement bushes. The A-frame type are apparently made on the Clangers' planet from purest Nonexistium. I had to resort to buying some that were close and modifying them on the lathe.
Front bushes are easier to locate; they're essentially Ford Cortina parts and if you can find them, the original Boge items are probably the longest-lasting; most places (e.g. Ebay sellers) flog a remanufactured version made in Kowloon from llama droppings and whale dung. They're OK, but only time will tell how long they'll last.
I got most of my bits from South Wales Propshafts a few years back; last time I looked their website had grown a lot and stuff wasn't as easy to find. They also do UJs for the drive- and prop-shafts.
While you're at it you may as well renew all the wheel bearings: again they're just Ford parts, nothing special and no need to pay silly prices to get them in a TVR box. Cortina front and Granada Mk. 2 rear.
I had an Esprit with AVO rear shocks and they were just that: shocking. From the receipt they'd been on the car 18 months; it had sat idle for 10 of them and the shocks were corroded to hell, couldn't move the spring platforms without a lot of work. I tend to stick with Koni shocks; doubtless someone will com along with a horror story about them but I've never had any problems.
What model is your Wedge? Is it trailing-arm or A-frame rear? If it's t-arm it's a lot easier to find replacement bushes. The A-frame type are apparently made on the Clangers' planet from purest Nonexistium. I had to resort to buying some that were close and modifying them on the lathe.
Front bushes are easier to locate; they're essentially Ford Cortina parts and if you can find them, the original Boge items are probably the longest-lasting; most places (e.g. Ebay sellers) flog a remanufactured version made in Kowloon from llama droppings and whale dung. They're OK, but only time will tell how long they'll last.
I got most of my bits from South Wales Propshafts a few years back; last time I looked their website had grown a lot and stuff wasn't as easy to find. They also do UJs for the drive- and prop-shafts.
While you're at it you may as well renew all the wheel bearings: again they're just Ford parts, nothing special and no need to pay silly prices to get them in a TVR box. Cortina front and Granada Mk. 2 rear.
matt-man said:
Really interesting this...I'm planning to superflex the whole car...I did the main bushes a few years back and I was really impressed with the results....hmmm...
A lot of what has been said on this thread about polybushing is rediculous. PBs vary from near to jelly to cotton reel in stiffness. Choose the correct shore rating and you'll be fine plus they last longer.
TA14 said:
A lot of what has been said on this thread about polybushing is rediculous. PBs vary from near to jelly to cotton reel in stiffness. Choose the correct shore rating and you'll be fine plus they last longer.
...and how many of the Poly-pushers give you a choice of Shore rating? Even knowing that, how do you know what the value of the original rubber was, and what engineering expertise do any of those selling polybushes have in order to correctly advise on choice for application? All anyone does is spout the makers' blurb and all they in turn do is hype their product to the skies. If Polyurethane really was a panacea for all ills then the mainstream car makers would have jumped all over it by now, if only as a marketing gimmick. Any sign of that?As to lasting longer, not in my experience. On my car the simplest bush in the whole suspension, the anti-roll bar to drop link, replaced in purple poly, lasted less than a year before being so distorted out of shape that half of it was no longer in the drop-link eye.
Two mates who 'uprated' their cars found that whilst smooth road cornering got faster, on rough roads the crashy ride made them slow down, not speed up - and one found that after a few spirited laps of a roundabout, his Poly wishbone bushes had irrecoverably distorted into ovals and been squeezed out the sides of the pivot... never seen that happen with a Metalstik.
So yes, for a track car, no contest as long as you view them as a consumable and replace as they get mashed, but I for one have better things to do with my road car than be rebuilding the suspension every year.
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