Westfield & Handling
Discussion
So what's it all about?
'A well sorted Westfield will handle as well a Caterham' 'We had to do alot to our Westie to get it to handle right' etc
Comments like these I see quite often. What is it about a Westfield that needs careful set-up?
I've been on fence over Caterham or Westie ownership and am leaning more for a cost effective Westie, but the handling issues concerns me...
Cheers
'A well sorted Westfield will handle as well a Caterham' 'We had to do alot to our Westie to get it to handle right' etc
Comments like these I see quite often. What is it about a Westfield that needs careful set-up?
I've been on fence over Caterham or Westie ownership and am leaning more for a cost effective Westie, but the handling issues concerns me...
Cheers
A far as I am aware there are no built in problems with the Westfield, so no reason it couldn't handle as well as a similar specced Caterham.
All cars benefit from the geometry being set up properly. Toe, camber, caster, thrust angle, tyre pressure, corner weight etc.
Often the dampers aren't valved correctly for a lightweight car either so could benefit from dyno testing and setting up accordingly.
Procomp in the midlands are one company that can offer the full service and have a great reputation.
I wouldn't be put off buying a well built Westfield based on internet chat. There are some very fast, great handling Westfields out there!
All cars benefit from the geometry being set up properly. Toe, camber, caster, thrust angle, tyre pressure, corner weight etc.
Often the dampers aren't valved correctly for a lightweight car either so could benefit from dyno testing and setting up accordingly.
Procomp in the midlands are one company that can offer the full service and have a great reputation.
I wouldn't be put off buying a well built Westfield based on internet chat. There are some very fast, great handling Westfields out there!
How about having to warm up the steering arms on the hub to straighten them out to reduce the bump steer. Having said this many people raise the racks on caterhams for the same reason. Main thing is that westies are generally a lot more agricultural than a caterham unless someone has gone to alot of trouble when they built it.
Megaflow said:
As standard there is far more adjustability in a Westfield and a lot of people don't spend the time getting the set up correctly. For example base Caterhams have fixed dampers, both ride height and damping, all Westfields have height adjustable and damping adjustment.
meaning that you can build in far more mistakes on a westfield...a base caterham should feel "right" to drive straight out of the box. the factory don't supply those fixed dampers because they got a good deal on them, they supply them because the valving is correct for a base caterham build.
different ways of looking at the same thing there.
fwiw I have always felt that the front end isn't as positive in a westfield. I haven't ever played with settings on one, but it didn't feel like I was 100% in contact with the front wheels (like I find it does in a caterham).
Personally, I'd spend the extra money on an ex academy car.
Life Saab Itch said:
meaning that you can build in far more mistakes on a westfield...
a base caterham should feel "right" to drive straight out of the box. the factory don't supply those fixed dampers because they got a good deal on them, they supply them because the valving is correct for a base caterham build.
different ways of looking at the same thing there.
fwiw I have always felt that the front end isn't as positive in a westfield. I haven't ever played with settings on one, but it didn't feel like I was 100% in contact with the front wheels (like I find it does in a caterham).
Personally, I'd spend the extra money on an ex academy car.
We are saying the same thing, just differently. Westfield have never bothered getting specially valves dampers and go with generic dampers, and hence when people don't set them up correctly they are not as good as they can be.a base caterham should feel "right" to drive straight out of the box. the factory don't supply those fixed dampers because they got a good deal on them, they supply them because the valving is correct for a base caterham build.
different ways of looking at the same thing there.
fwiw I have always felt that the front end isn't as positive in a westfield. I haven't ever played with settings on one, but it didn't feel like I was 100% in contact with the front wheels (like I find it does in a caterham).
Personally, I'd spend the extra money on an ex academy car.
The front end on mine could be a bit too positive some days, the rear would struggle to keep up, but some of that was because mine was live axle. But the reason it was better than a normal Westfield is I'd binned the factory dampers and fitted decent items along with correct spring rates.
me and my mates purchased 3 westfields in the past 4 months. the car had been the typical SE or SEi from 1989 to 1991...longterm ownership b4 us (10 to 15 years one owner)...and ALL had the upper wishbones fitted in the wrong way (reversed). on one car the right hand one was correct, the left hand wrong...the cars handled like cr*p, when we confronted the former owners with this subject they started to get aggressive....
half an hourwork at home, plus a proper wheel alignment...and the cars handeld like a dream.
there are lots of kits out there where the acutal owners have no idea how a seven should handle..and they think it is normal to have a heavy stearing with lots of bump steer etc.
half an hourwork at home, plus a proper wheel alignment...and the cars handeld like a dream.
there are lots of kits out there where the acutal owners have no idea how a seven should handle..and they think it is normal to have a heavy stearing with lots of bump steer etc.
My previous 'Seven' experience was a BEC MAC#1 and tbh it wasn't too great...
I bought the car just under 1 year old off the original builder who had already built one which his son owned.
He set geometry with string and tweaked after road testing. The handling was dire, bordering on dangerous (this was on the buying test drive). With all my cars, I am very keen on getting suspension and handling set-up correctly, and also find it's rare to buy a well sorted (performance) car. OK I thought, I can get geo sorted, so I took the car to Procomp, who found the dampers were on too oblique an angle work correctly, mismatched for the car (incorrectly valved and couldn't properly match all 4 together), and the adjusters didn't produce the same on each one
Sufficient front caster couldn't be made due the wishbone attachment design and enough n/s rear dynamic camber couldn't be set, which caused the want to oversteer that way, especially with a passenger.
Procomp told me the MAC design wasn't too bad in the greater scheme of kit cars and said then a well sorted Westie is the way to go
I don't want a repeat of this, and while I was thinking of a Caterham as they seem well sorted, they are also strong money, hence looking at Westies
I bought the car just under 1 year old off the original builder who had already built one which his son owned.
He set geometry with string and tweaked after road testing. The handling was dire, bordering on dangerous (this was on the buying test drive). With all my cars, I am very keen on getting suspension and handling set-up correctly, and also find it's rare to buy a well sorted (performance) car. OK I thought, I can get geo sorted, so I took the car to Procomp, who found the dampers were on too oblique an angle work correctly, mismatched for the car (incorrectly valved and couldn't properly match all 4 together), and the adjusters didn't produce the same on each one
Sufficient front caster couldn't be made due the wishbone attachment design and enough n/s rear dynamic camber couldn't be set, which caused the want to oversteer that way, especially with a passenger.
Procomp told me the MAC design wasn't too bad in the greater scheme of kit cars and said then a well sorted Westie is the way to go
I don't want a repeat of this, and while I was thinking of a Caterham as they seem well sorted, they are also strong money, hence looking at Westies
bonesX said:
My previous 'Seven' experience was a BEC MAC#1 and tbh it wasn't too great...
I bought the car just under 1 year old off the original builder who had already built one which his son owned.
He set geometry with string and tweaked after road testing. The handling was dire, bordering on dangerous (this was on the buying test drive). With all my cars, I am very keen on getting suspension and handling set-up correctly, and also find it's rare to buy a well sorted (performance) car. OK I thought, I can get geo sorted, so I took the car to Procomp, who found the dampers were on too oblique an angle work correctly, mismatched for the car (incorrectly valved and couldn't properly match all 4 together), and the adjusters didn't produce the same on each one
This is very, very common on the lower end coilover dampers, and isn't really the fault of the original builder or MAC#1.I bought the car just under 1 year old off the original builder who had already built one which his son owned.
He set geometry with string and tweaked after road testing. The handling was dire, bordering on dangerous (this was on the buying test drive). With all my cars, I am very keen on getting suspension and handling set-up correctly, and also find it's rare to buy a well sorted (performance) car. OK I thought, I can get geo sorted, so I took the car to Procomp, who found the dampers were on too oblique an angle work correctly, mismatched for the car (incorrectly valved and couldn't properly match all 4 together), and the adjusters didn't produce the same on each one
This has become a "Caterham is best" thread
What we should be exploring is cost over solution
I would vote for an MNR Vortex properly setup
If you buy a Caterham you should still get it setup
As for inherent suspension problems in kit cars, if there is a problem its not a big deal to sort, re position wishbone brackets, new wishbones, correct dampers
What we should be exploring is cost over solution
I would vote for an MNR Vortex properly setup
If you buy a Caterham you should still get it setup
As for inherent suspension problems in kit cars, if there is a problem its not a big deal to sort, re position wishbone brackets, new wishbones, correct dampers
I like tinkering with geometry settings, and one of the reasons I bought a MAC #1 was because of its generous amount of geometry adjustment, or so I thought.
The wishbone top mounts had castor adjustment from removing the bolt and arranging washers either more front or rear (as it appears the Caterham has from the post above). Even on the maximum 'setting' sufficient caster couldn't be achieved to self centre the wheel when travelling. Procomp told me this situation wasn't too bad when comparing to other kits out there as many did not have any caster adjustment at all
I have to say (and this isn't a Caterham is best) the only other kit cars I have driven is three different Caterhams, two from CC Midlands which their steering felt good - direct, a bit heavy but full of feel, but the a used one I went to view didn't feel good - that bounced down the road a bit, especially in the bends where it skipped and veered off. I don't think this should happen, on any car, including a kit car...??
The wishbone top mounts had castor adjustment from removing the bolt and arranging washers either more front or rear (as it appears the Caterham has from the post above). Even on the maximum 'setting' sufficient caster couldn't be achieved to self centre the wheel when travelling. Procomp told me this situation wasn't too bad when comparing to other kits out there as many did not have any caster adjustment at all
I have to say (and this isn't a Caterham is best) the only other kit cars I have driven is three different Caterhams, two from CC Midlands which their steering felt good - direct, a bit heavy but full of feel, but the a used one I went to view didn't feel good - that bounced down the road a bit, especially in the bends where it skipped and veered off. I don't think this should happen, on any car, including a kit car...??
PaulKemp said:
As for inherent suspension problems in kit cars, if there is a problem its not a big deal to sort, re position wishbone brackets, new wishbones, correct dampers
You are correct, but the average kit builder doesn't have sufficient knowledge to start moving suspension mounting points.I enjoy driving, but I don't consider myself knowledgeable or skilled enough to be a test driver deciding suspension settings.
Many years ago I built a Westfield and found it generally well engineered. I had all four wheels adjusted to the (8 page!) manuals suggested settings and set the ride height to what was recommended (admittedly, I had never even heard of checking corner weights back then).
I came to the adjustable Spax dampers and phoned the factory to find out where they should be set for my specification and was told "try 3 clicks all round and go from there."
Partly due to my lack of knowledge and money to pay to get it set up, I ended up with a car that had a very loose rear, no self centring or feel from the steering and brakes that locked at the rear long before the front.
A couple of years ago, I went to look at buying a Caterham. When I heard that the dampers were supplied without adjustment, because they had been carefully tested and set to suit the car, I found it very reassuring. My basic Seven has very little adjustment, the rear wheels are fixed and at the front the castor position is recommended for each model in the manual, leaving only camber and tracking to adjust. At the post build check, the car was road tested and the wheel alignment checked. I now have a sports car that I can really enjoy driving and has very good handling from what I have found over the first 10,000 miles
If I start to suffer from upgraditis, I can go and buy adjustable dampers, but at least I have a good idea of how the car should perform and can compare impressions to see if improve it or not.
As an update, i've been beavering away on my car buy decision (Caterham or Westie), and after all the e-reading, talking to owners, and associated companies and the like (eg suspension), have reached this conclusion:
When both cars are a few years old there's really nothing in the real world driving of both.
You do get a lot more spec for your money though and a much younger machine
As far as handling goes, the Wetie does a decent job of things, similar to a Caterham. Westies are well made, with good design, and suspension pick up points are well located, and consistently so at that, unlike most others. So, there's a decent amount of castor, albeit non-adjustable (4 1/2 - 5°) to give feel and lock self correction. Only issue seems to be the dampers are questionably valved (for a heavier car it seems).
Yes I would like a Caterham, but the one I would like (Supersport R Duratec) is over £20K whereas a Duratec Westie is more like £10
When both cars are a few years old there's really nothing in the real world driving of both.
You do get a lot more spec for your money though and a much younger machine
As far as handling goes, the Wetie does a decent job of things, similar to a Caterham. Westies are well made, with good design, and suspension pick up points are well located, and consistently so at that, unlike most others. So, there's a decent amount of castor, albeit non-adjustable (4 1/2 - 5°) to give feel and lock self correction. Only issue seems to be the dampers are questionably valved (for a heavier car it seems).
Yes I would like a Caterham, but the one I would like (Supersport R Duratec) is over £20K whereas a Duratec Westie is more like £10
When I decided to do the "Seven thang", Caterham didnt even show on my radar for all sorts of reasons. I decided on a Rush in the end because to me it was the best looking Seven out there, Westies run it a close second imo.
Do I regret going this route? Yes and no! Yes because Dax were a pita to deal with. Yes because I spent more money getting what is essentially a large car down to a sensible weight for a bike engine. Yes because it was far more of an engineering project then I first realised, but that may have had a lot more with the way I wanted to build it. And no because I love the look of the finished car.......
.......Of course I am biased!
However which ever Seven you go for, you'll love it! Its taught me lot about car handling, (its still teaching me!), and its far more of a car then I will ever be driver, something I remind myself when ever I strap myself into it.
Do I regret going this route? Yes and no! Yes because Dax were a pita to deal with. Yes because I spent more money getting what is essentially a large car down to a sensible weight for a bike engine. Yes because it was far more of an engineering project then I first realised, but that may have had a lot more with the way I wanted to build it. And no because I love the look of the finished car.......
.......Of course I am biased!
However which ever Seven you go for, you'll love it! Its taught me lot about car handling, (its still teaching me!), and its far more of a car then I will ever be driver, something I remind myself when ever I strap myself into it.
I was sceptical when I first bought my westfield and the first few drives didn't instil much confidence as mine corners so flat. I was used to big heavy cars rolling in bends. After about a month my confidence grew as did my cornering speeds.
I'm constantly amazed by how well the chassis copes with so much power. The road holding and handling are "almost" as breath taking as its straight line pace.
I'm constantly amazed by how well the chassis copes with so much power. The road holding and handling are "almost" as breath taking as its straight line pace.
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