V12 Vantage 'S' - Track Day!
Discussion
Had an amazing opportunity to test drive the V12V 'S' today at Silverstone (thanks Aston Martin Brentwood!).
I have been a bit sceptical of the paddle shift box, so I wasn't expecting to enjoy it, but it's actually an awesome bit of kit, once you get the slight foot lift when changing up, then the new Sport Shift 3 is really smooth. It's definitely faster and good to keep both hands on the wheel, but for me personally, I think the manual is still a little more engaging (maybe I need to try it on the road!), but from a sheer speed perspective, the paddle shift would win.
Was a great opportunity to 'give it the beans' and the grip on it is unbelievable, I imagine my 'standard' V12 is pretty similar but have never tracked it.
All the tweaks Aston have made, from the upgraded engine, to the cosmetic bits (and the noise!) are definitely worthy upgrades... may well be tempted in the future!
Here's a clip on youtube of one of my laps and some pics below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6S1FT4BQJQ&fea...
I have been a bit sceptical of the paddle shift box, so I wasn't expecting to enjoy it, but it's actually an awesome bit of kit, once you get the slight foot lift when changing up, then the new Sport Shift 3 is really smooth. It's definitely faster and good to keep both hands on the wheel, but for me personally, I think the manual is still a little more engaging (maybe I need to try it on the road!), but from a sheer speed perspective, the paddle shift would win.
Was a great opportunity to 'give it the beans' and the grip on it is unbelievable, I imagine my 'standard' V12 is pretty similar but have never tracked it.
All the tweaks Aston have made, from the upgraded engine, to the cosmetic bits (and the noise!) are definitely worthy upgrades... may well be tempted in the future!
Here's a clip on youtube of one of my laps and some pics below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6S1FT4BQJQ&fea...
Nice one, that looks like a really fab day and great pics too, which reminds me that I must call my dealer tomorrow and enquire about one of these test day slots myself. Actually I'm a bit disappointed I haven't already been asked without needing to call, but hey ho.
Anyway - what was it like to drive at slow speeds? I've no doubt that SS3 will be superior on a track to a manual box, but is there the same degree of driver involvement pootling around town at 20-30mph as there is with the manual? I guess maybe the day is not setup to major on this area, but perhaps you might be able to answer a couple of key questions for me from when you pulled out of the pits. They are:
Like you I am a bit sceptical of a paddle box V12V but this is because before the last two Astons I had a manual 997.1 Carrera S and traded it in for a 997.2 PDK Carrera S. Sure the 997.2 PDK was miles faster, but I hated it as it lost so much of the day to day involvement the 997.1 manual had and PDK felt like an automatic at slow speeds even using the manual mode, and so I sold it about 3 months later.
Actually I might actually be better waiting for a dealer drive in the local area on thinking about it, as absolute track performance is far less important to me than driver involvement and feedback in day to day real life normal driving at legal and normal speeds. Trouble is the only other car I would have considered was the Porsche GT3 which has also just abandoned using a manual gearbox with the new 991 model. Both 991 GT3 and V12VS have potential I think to still get the balance right, but I have been burnt and so remain cautious now about ever buying a paddle shift manual again.
Anyway - what was it like to drive at slow speeds? I've no doubt that SS3 will be superior on a track to a manual box, but is there the same degree of driver involvement pootling around town at 20-30mph as there is with the manual? I guess maybe the day is not setup to major on this area, but perhaps you might be able to answer a couple of key questions for me from when you pulled out of the pits. They are:
- When setting off at a sedate pace does is slip the clutch like an auto would or like a human using a manual would?
- When stopped and in 1st gear does it creep even with no throttle meaning you have to apply the brake (again like an auto would) or does it only engage the clutch as you apply that first bit of throttle?
Like you I am a bit sceptical of a paddle box V12V but this is because before the last two Astons I had a manual 997.1 Carrera S and traded it in for a 997.2 PDK Carrera S. Sure the 997.2 PDK was miles faster, but I hated it as it lost so much of the day to day involvement the 997.1 manual had and PDK felt like an automatic at slow speeds even using the manual mode, and so I sold it about 3 months later.
Actually I might actually be better waiting for a dealer drive in the local area on thinking about it, as absolute track performance is far less important to me than driver involvement and feedback in day to day real life normal driving at legal and normal speeds. Trouble is the only other car I would have considered was the Porsche GT3 which has also just abandoned using a manual gearbox with the new 991 model. Both 991 GT3 and V12VS have potential I think to still get the balance right, but I have been burnt and so remain cautious now about ever buying a paddle shift manual again.
I think you have made a great case Adam, for keeping the car that you already have.
You like a manual gearbox, you say you don't need more power.
Your perfect car is the V12 Vanatge. Possibly the last manual Aston Martin.
Perhaps it will become a 'keeper'.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 21st August 20:43
Jon39 said:
I think you have made a great case, for keeping the car that you already have.
You like a manual gearbox, you don't need more power.
Your perfect car is the V12 Vanatge. Possibly the last manual Aston Martin.
Perhaps it will become a 'keeper'.
Ha, yeah it's a very fair point that you make, but I've owned several cars that should have been "keepers" really but never kept any of them more than 2yrs before I guess boredom set in and I felt the need for something newer or better. In 25 years of driving I've owned 24 cars and considering 5 of the last 6 have been kept for 2yrs that shows how long some of the other cars lasted! You like a manual gearbox, you don't need more power.
Your perfect car is the V12 Vanatge. Possibly the last manual Aston Martin.
Perhaps it will become a 'keeper'.
That said I'm not ready to change out of the V12V quite yet, but certainly beginning to look for what might be 12mths from now.
AdamV12V said:
Anyway - what was it like to drive at slow speeds? I've no doubt that SS3 will be superior on a track to a manual box, but is there the same degree of driver involvement pootling around town at 20-30mph as there is with the manual? I guess maybe the day is not setup to major on this area, but perhaps you might be able to answer a couple of key questions for me from when you pulled out of the pits. They are:
- When setting off at a sedate pace does is slip the clutch like an auto would or like a human using a manual would?
- When stopped and in 1st gear does it creep even with no throttle meaning you have to apply the brake (again like an auto would) or does it only engage the clutch as you apply that first bit of throttle?
- To be honest, we weren't going slowly for long(!), but I don't recall any slip.
- The car can be in first gear and static without the brake applied. When I first selected first gear it just sat there, then I applied throttle and it moved forward. So this is not like a typical full-auto.
It's a very capable machine and I'm sure will sell very well, but the hardest to convert will be people like you and me, who have, and are very happy with, almost the same car but with a manual-box, which we prefer.
However, for the competitive 'track' enthusiast, I think the V12V-S is a no-brainer as it will surely produce faster lap times.
Edited by stimshady on Wednesday 21st August 20:55
stimshady said:
- To be honest, we weren't going slowly for long(!), but I don't recall any slip.
- The car can be in first gear and static without the brake applied. When I first selected first gear it just sat there, then I applied throttle and it moved forward. So this is not like a typical full-auto.
It's a very capable machine and I'm sure will sell very well, but the hardest to convert will be people like you and me, who have, and are very happy with, almost the same car but with a manual-box, which we prefer.
AdamV12V said:
Cheers, those answers sound encouraging then! I might just call and see if I can wangle a Silverstone V12VS day myself. Any idea how long the event runs for?
No idea at all, I was lucky to get a place, it was a bit last minute for me, but see if you can get your dealer to work some magic for you!There was also talk of less 'judder' through the steering wheel (on certain surfaces, think car parks) at lower speeds with the 'S' due to the advanced damping on the suspension.
I'm very much looking forward to driving the S - doing it around a track is the ideal way to get a good feel for the car as I always find that short local test drives around the local roads are of little value - it's only once you've bought the car that you really become familiar with it.
I'm wondering how much the cost to change will be - I can imagine the best way to convince existing V12V owners to change is to get them on track like this - otherwise I wonder if around the public roads if the gearbox really makes a compelling case for what will be a significant cost to change. For new folks to the AM fold or for V8 owners looking to upgrade, the V12VS is looking like a great option. Can I get it with the regular grille though - to me the black one they have has lost the icon AM look somewhat (probably a 10K option via Q branch!)
I'm wondering how much the cost to change will be - I can imagine the best way to convince existing V12V owners to change is to get them on track like this - otherwise I wonder if around the public roads if the gearbox really makes a compelling case for what will be a significant cost to change. For new folks to the AM fold or for V8 owners looking to upgrade, the V12VS is looking like a great option. Can I get it with the regular grille though - to me the black one they have has lost the icon AM look somewhat (probably a 10K option via Q branch!)
Great you had the chance to drive the beast....last week,chap at Gaydon said it was a great car but figures on paper and the USA/Middle East dictated the gear box and its "raison d'etre",...I'm not going to spout on about being a purist as the paddle shift is naturally going to be quicker and it seems its the way things are going generally with big engine sports cars...Does the "mighty" Vanquish engine feel more urgent with that extra torque than the "humble" DBS unit....you've enjoyed and experienced this car(very envious)would you buy? Do you reckon used manuals are going to hold their value better due to purists or like the V8 VS they introduced a manual?
ripley500 said:
Can I get it with the regular grille though - to me the black one they have has lost the icon AM look somewhat (probably a 10K option via Q branch!)
no, i don't think so, they mentioned this today, it's open like that to improve air flow. it does look better in the metal/carbon than the pics though.
AdamV12V said:
In 25 years of driving I've owned 24 cars and considering 5 of the last 6 have been kept for 2yrs, that shows how long some of the other cars lasted!
I did think from your profile Adam, that you enjoy changing your cars frequently. You are clearly a good customer, so your dealer ought to be offering you frequent 'tempters'.
A V12VS track day might be coming your way very soon (if they read these posts).
You won't understand this, but during the last 15 years, I have only bought 3 cars. However, my keeper system does provide a varied choice of cars to drive, including my Vantage occasionally.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 21st August 23:38
Cool post Matt. I did receive the letter. Need to book it.
The steering of my vanilla v12 does judder at low speeds. Works told me they all do that.
For now i will stick with my manual v12. I like the driving inlvolvment.
If i was to go and track it like crazy, i would use another car anyway.
The steering of my vanilla v12 does judder at low speeds. Works told me they all do that.
For now i will stick with my manual v12. I like the driving inlvolvment.
If i was to go and track it like crazy, i would use another car anyway.
I was at Silverstone as well yesterday and it was indeed a very good day. The gearbox is miles better than the on the Vantage S that i drove at Millbrook. It changed more quickly (without being Ferarri quick) and feels solid. I have driven both my V12V and now the "S" around the National Circuit at Silverstone and as Matt says, the S is quicker due to the gear change - less so due to the power hike. There is one particular corner where you need to change down to 3rd in heavy braking and then go up through the gears approaching Madgwick. That bit is busy in a manual car as you loose speed whilst changing cogs or indeed hit the limiter if you don't. In the S you can concentrate on staying on the ideal line. So the handling (for the amateur driver) on track would be easier. Whether it is more fun is difficult to say. I actually enjoy trying to get my manual shifting perfect and that is suddenly no longer a feature of any track day.
In terms of sheer speed the S did not feel that much quicker. Im sure it probably is and they showed a video where Simon the works driver took it on the running mile at Millbrock alongside the V12V and from a 20 mph rolling start the S outpaced the V12V with a couple of car length on the mile.
I played around with the adaptive dampening as well, but as the race track is very smooth anyway there was not a lot of difference in the 3 settings. I actually find the dampening on the V12V rather perfect so Im not sure you would use this feature a lot. As Matt is saying, the steering judder at parking speeds has gone. This is due to the fact that a progressive power steering system has been added which assists heavily at low speeds and then reduces at speed builds up. I recall Paul the vehicle engineer telling us at the V12V day at Newport Pagnel some years ago that the judder was a deliberate trade off due to the fact that they had chosen a more direct feeling with less assistance - hence the judder. So I think this is called evolution.
As conclusion, I find the V12VS to be a worthy successor of the V12V and adding the paddles is a rational decision by AML to go with the times and make the V12VS more accessible for a broader audience. It is nicely executed and it remains a desirable car. Would I change ? Not in a million years. I drove up to Silverstone in my GT3 RS 4.0 and going through the round-abouts leaving the circuit using the manual gearbox is a different sensation altogether which you are deprived off in a paddle shift car. I believe that existing owners will hold on to their manual car (because that was their original choice) whilst new entrants to the brand will enjoy the V12VS. As an afterthought for existing owners you could probably buy a GT3 for the difference in trade in price between your V12V and the new S and the GT3 being 300 kilos lighter would then be your track weapon of choice - and you then have the best of both worlds !
In terms of sheer speed the S did not feel that much quicker. Im sure it probably is and they showed a video where Simon the works driver took it on the running mile at Millbrock alongside the V12V and from a 20 mph rolling start the S outpaced the V12V with a couple of car length on the mile.
I played around with the adaptive dampening as well, but as the race track is very smooth anyway there was not a lot of difference in the 3 settings. I actually find the dampening on the V12V rather perfect so Im not sure you would use this feature a lot. As Matt is saying, the steering judder at parking speeds has gone. This is due to the fact that a progressive power steering system has been added which assists heavily at low speeds and then reduces at speed builds up. I recall Paul the vehicle engineer telling us at the V12V day at Newport Pagnel some years ago that the judder was a deliberate trade off due to the fact that they had chosen a more direct feeling with less assistance - hence the judder. So I think this is called evolution.
As conclusion, I find the V12VS to be a worthy successor of the V12V and adding the paddles is a rational decision by AML to go with the times and make the V12VS more accessible for a broader audience. It is nicely executed and it remains a desirable car. Would I change ? Not in a million years. I drove up to Silverstone in my GT3 RS 4.0 and going through the round-abouts leaving the circuit using the manual gearbox is a different sensation altogether which you are deprived off in a paddle shift car. I believe that existing owners will hold on to their manual car (because that was their original choice) whilst new entrants to the brand will enjoy the V12VS. As an afterthought for existing owners you could probably buy a GT3 for the difference in trade in price between your V12V and the new S and the GT3 being 300 kilos lighter would then be your track weapon of choice - and you then have the best of both worlds !
hornbaek said:
As an afterthought for existing owners you could probably buy a GT3 for the difference in trade in price between your V12V and the new S and the GT3 being 300 kilos lighter would then be your track weapon of choice - and you then have the best of both worlds !
Now there's a thought..a tool for each....and speaking of tools..when does the F12 arrive in the shed?v12v2013 said:
Does the "mighty" Vanquish engine feel more urgent with that extra torque than the "humble" DBS unit....you've enjoyed and experienced this car(very envious)would you buy? Do you reckon used manuals are going to hold their value better due to purists or like the V8 VS they introduced a manual?
To be honest, the general speed wasn't a massive noticeable difference. I wasn't driving it thinking "damn this thing is so much quicker than my V12" - that thought didn't really enter my mind. However, i am sure that the feeling of speed is very different on a track where it's nice and wide with open spaces compared to a road with a lot more going on where things/people/cars arrive in your field of vision a lot quicker. Who knows what the manual prices will do with the V12VS now around - as far as i know AML haven't limited production to 1000 V12VS' so hopefully ours will keep a good bit of value still!
I was at Silverstone as well yesterday a superb day, thank you Aston Martin.For me when I changed from my
4.3 Vantage to the V12V, I remember the difference was huge and with the excitement/enjoyment I could justify the spend, but although I really liked the new V12V`s(I think the paddle shift could be quicker)when I got back into my manual for the 2hr drive home I just thought this is a `fantastic car` and the difference for me is not big enough to want to change.
4.3 Vantage to the V12V, I remember the difference was huge and with the excitement/enjoyment I could justify the spend, but although I really liked the new V12V`s(I think the paddle shift could be quicker)when I got back into my manual for the 2hr drive home I just thought this is a `fantastic car` and the difference for me is not big enough to want to change.
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