When did German cars "lose it"?
Discussion
In some respects they never did, a modern GT3 is probably way better (in performance terms) than its 1990's 911 counterpart.
But come on, they're just not built like they used to be, are they?
When I were a lad (
) yer average German 3 box saloon was over engineered to (then) barely believable levels, a thing of beauty to a mogadishuan taxi driver, but now.....
But come on, they're just not built like they used to be, are they?
When I were a lad (
) yer average German 3 box saloon was over engineered to (then) barely believable levels, a thing of beauty to a mogadishuan taxi driver, but now.....When did they lose it? For the Germans to 'lose it', that implies somer other manufacturer/country has 'gained it'. Who is that then??
Japanese cars probably have a better reputation for reliability, but that was ever thus (since the seventies at least). I'm not seeing anybody else doing better.
Japanese cars probably have a better reputation for reliability, but that was ever thus (since the seventies at least). I'm not seeing anybody else doing better.
Err, my three German cars are spot on. Had my e92 m3 from new with just minor maintenance, now 5.5 years old (a keeper) and only yesterday someone asked me if it was new. The Pork is unbelievably good and the wife's Tiguan, pound for pound, is the best car we have ever owned IMO.
Now, the Mercedes B class she had before, that was an utter crock of s
t.
Now, the Mercedes B class she had before, that was an utter crock of s
t.I agree that German cars have in general "lost it" where "it" is the legendary reliability and "hewn from granite" feel.
Bean counters getting too much control is the problem IMHO.
Engine issues with the 996, my folks '96 E class rusting from the inside out, my '98 S8 gearbox failing etc.
The bean counters are probably right though. They were over-engineered and the profits are probably far higher (witness Porsche) but I'd be deeply wary of buying a German car now without a solid warranty.
Or maybe my impression of older German cars is too romantic? Million mile E class taxis etc
Bean counters getting too much control is the problem IMHO.
Engine issues with the 996, my folks '96 E class rusting from the inside out, my '98 S8 gearbox failing etc.
The bean counters are probably right though. They were over-engineered and the profits are probably far higher (witness Porsche) but I'd be deeply wary of buying a German car now without a solid warranty.
Or maybe my impression of older German cars is too romantic? Million mile E class taxis etc
I don't think the German companies have lost their ability to build reliable cars. They're perfectly capable of doing so if there is a market for it. And indeed some things seem to be a lot better than 20 years ago (e.g. corrosion resistance, crash protection). But the market has changed.
20 years ago many people bought cars outright for cash (or possibly bank loan/finance) and expected to keep them for a good few years. Long-term reliability and resale value were important factors.
Today, many people buy on lease and get a new car every 2 - 3 years. It's all under warranty so repair costs are less of an issue. And most people want toys; they don't really care about how thick the steel is or whether the engine can do 300k without a rebuild.
The population as a whole is less STEM-literate so it is harder to engage them on tech stuff like component reliability. This really hits home when you compare car brochures from the early 1990s and today. The former tend to have lots of technical information, the latter are more like lifestyle magazines.
Finally there is the fact that modern cars are increasingly complex (legislation, fuel economy etc.). I imagine that the engineering required to hit the same quality bar quickly becomes uneconomic. At the end of the day most people are short-term price driven.
Maybe the Germans have simply responded to this market better than others...
20 years ago many people bought cars outright for cash (or possibly bank loan/finance) and expected to keep them for a good few years. Long-term reliability and resale value were important factors.
Today, many people buy on lease and get a new car every 2 - 3 years. It's all under warranty so repair costs are less of an issue. And most people want toys; they don't really care about how thick the steel is or whether the engine can do 300k without a rebuild.
The population as a whole is less STEM-literate so it is harder to engage them on tech stuff like component reliability. This really hits home when you compare car brochures from the early 1990s and today. The former tend to have lots of technical information, the latter are more like lifestyle magazines.
Finally there is the fact that modern cars are increasingly complex (legislation, fuel economy etc.). I imagine that the engineering required to hit the same quality bar quickly becomes uneconomic. At the end of the day most people are short-term price driven.
Maybe the Germans have simply responded to this market better than others...
German cars HAVE lost a lot of their traditional appeal.
They have turned into something different.
German cars used to be over-engineered but a little dull. Square boxes. Think of a 70's boxy e-class versus a smooth, sleek Jaguar XJ. But the Merc had quality on its side.
Not any more. German cars are now the cars with a style people aspire to. They have the "prestige" thing sewn up.
But they are not the same quality as they used to be. Soft plastics and nice surfaces inside an Audi have little to do with real engineering quality. It is just a thin veneer. There is less engineering integrity than there used to be.
This is not just an opinion. After all, it is not German cars that top the reliability tables, but Japanese and Korean brands.
They have turned into something different.
German cars used to be over-engineered but a little dull. Square boxes. Think of a 70's boxy e-class versus a smooth, sleek Jaguar XJ. But the Merc had quality on its side.
Not any more. German cars are now the cars with a style people aspire to. They have the "prestige" thing sewn up.
But they are not the same quality as they used to be. Soft plastics and nice surfaces inside an Audi have little to do with real engineering quality. It is just a thin veneer. There is less engineering integrity than there used to be.
This is not just an opinion. After all, it is not German cars that top the reliability tables, but Japanese and Korean brands.
it's quite rare on PH these days to actually ask a question & have it answered so well. 
AmitG said:
I don't think the German companies have lost their ability to build reliable cars. They're perfectly capable of doing so if there is a market for it. And indeed some things seem to be a lot better than 20 years ago (e.g. corrosion resistance, crash protection). But the market has changed.
20 years ago many people bought cars outright for cash (or possibly bank loan/finance) and expected to keep them for a good few years. Long-term reliability and resale value were important factors.
Today, many people buy on lease and get a new car every 2 - 3 years. It's all under warranty so repair costs are less of an issue. And most people want toys; they don't really care about how thick the steel is or whether the engine can do 300k without a rebuild.
The population as a whole is less STEM-literate so it is harder to engage them on tech stuff like component reliability. This really hits home when you compare car brochures from the early 1990s and today. The former tend to have lots of technical information, the latter are more like lifestyle magazines.
Finally there is the fact that modern cars are increasingly complex (legislation, fuel economy etc.). I imagine that the engineering required to hit the same quality bar quickly becomes uneconomic. At the end of the day most people are short-term price driven.
Maybe the Germans have simply responded to this market better than others...
20 years ago many people bought cars outright for cash (or possibly bank loan/finance) and expected to keep them for a good few years. Long-term reliability and resale value were important factors.
Today, many people buy on lease and get a new car every 2 - 3 years. It's all under warranty so repair costs are less of an issue. And most people want toys; they don't really care about how thick the steel is or whether the engine can do 300k without a rebuild.
The population as a whole is less STEM-literate so it is harder to engage them on tech stuff like component reliability. This really hits home when you compare car brochures from the early 1990s and today. The former tend to have lots of technical information, the latter are more like lifestyle magazines.
Finally there is the fact that modern cars are increasingly complex (legislation, fuel economy etc.). I imagine that the engineering required to hit the same quality bar quickly becomes uneconomic. At the end of the day most people are short-term price driven.
Maybe the Germans have simply responded to this market better than others...
What we have to remember is that German cars of the 70s and 80s were considered superlatively engineered compared to what else was around at the time.
The Earliest imported Golfs and Three Series were up against stuff that was, in terms of quality, woeful. Morris Marina, Alfa Sud, Renault Fuego, Cortina Mark 4, Vauxhall Victor and VX4/90. Those cars had style; I love all of them for what they are and represent, but quality control was virtually non-existent in those days. Consumers would accept trim falling off, engines failing to start and gears refusing to engage in ways no-one would now. My Dad drove in that era and he genuinely had lower expectations of what a car should be capable of.
So the German cars in the middle sector were a lot better. They were more reliable and better built.
At the top, E-Class and Seven Series competed against V8 SD1s, Leyland Jaguars, Granadas, Royales etc
Again none of those were well made cars. They rotted in the same way as the lower end stuff and possessed prehistoric engines. Offering a live axle in the mid-eighties was hardly going to cut it!
So the backdrop was of low expectations from the consumer. Corporate bosses at Leyland, Ford and Vauxhall loved every second and turned out poorly executed dross. Compared to that German cars were awesome: they worked, in the main, were practical and stylish and powerful. The engineering really was far advanced.
However something odd happened in the mid to late eighties: Lancia discovered rust proofing, Datsun became Nissan and undersealed the Bluebird. Saab began putting turbos on the old four.
Following this quiet revolution much better stuff began to emerge from Japan, France, Sweden and Italy. A car like the Fiat Punto wasn't 'hewn from granite' or whatever German cliché people spout. However it didn't rust, was pretty reliable and fulfilled the brief of being a cheap city car.
The Nissan Primera was released with a class leading chassis and eventually got powerful engines. The Corolla never broke down and Citroens and Peugeots came fully galvanised.
Thus my point is that at one point German engineering seemed a lot more advanced than it really was; simply because the bar had been set so low. The Germans haven't lost it - the rest of the world caught up. Now the reference point is that much higher: a Mondeo or Insignia is a far better built car than a Cortina or Victor, German cars aren't above it to the same degree.
The Earliest imported Golfs and Three Series were up against stuff that was, in terms of quality, woeful. Morris Marina, Alfa Sud, Renault Fuego, Cortina Mark 4, Vauxhall Victor and VX4/90. Those cars had style; I love all of them for what they are and represent, but quality control was virtually non-existent in those days. Consumers would accept trim falling off, engines failing to start and gears refusing to engage in ways no-one would now. My Dad drove in that era and he genuinely had lower expectations of what a car should be capable of.
So the German cars in the middle sector were a lot better. They were more reliable and better built.
At the top, E-Class and Seven Series competed against V8 SD1s, Leyland Jaguars, Granadas, Royales etc
Again none of those were well made cars. They rotted in the same way as the lower end stuff and possessed prehistoric engines. Offering a live axle in the mid-eighties was hardly going to cut it!
So the backdrop was of low expectations from the consumer. Corporate bosses at Leyland, Ford and Vauxhall loved every second and turned out poorly executed dross. Compared to that German cars were awesome: they worked, in the main, were practical and stylish and powerful. The engineering really was far advanced.
However something odd happened in the mid to late eighties: Lancia discovered rust proofing, Datsun became Nissan and undersealed the Bluebird. Saab began putting turbos on the old four.
Following this quiet revolution much better stuff began to emerge from Japan, France, Sweden and Italy. A car like the Fiat Punto wasn't 'hewn from granite' or whatever German cliché people spout. However it didn't rust, was pretty reliable and fulfilled the brief of being a cheap city car.
The Nissan Primera was released with a class leading chassis and eventually got powerful engines. The Corolla never broke down and Citroens and Peugeots came fully galvanised.
Thus my point is that at one point German engineering seemed a lot more advanced than it really was; simply because the bar had been set so low. The Germans haven't lost it - the rest of the world caught up. Now the reference point is that much higher: a Mondeo or Insignia is a far better built car than a Cortina or Victor, German cars aren't above it to the same degree.
Futuramic said:
What we have to remember is that German cars of the 70s and 80s were considered superlatively engineered compared to what else was around at the time.
The Earliest imported Golfs and Three Series were up against stuff that was, in terms of quality, woeful. Morris Marina, Alfa Sud, Renault Fuego, Cortina Mark 4, Vauxhall Victor and VX4/90. Those cars had style; I love all of them for what they are and represent, but quality control was virtually non-existent in those days. Consumers would accept trim falling off, engines failing to start and gears refusing to engage in ways no-one would now. My Dad drove in that era and he genuinely had lower expectations of what a car should be capable of.
So the German cars in the middle sector were a lot better. They were more reliable and better built.
At the top, E-Class and Seven Series competed against V8 SD1s, Leyland Jaguars, Granadas, Royales etc
Again none of those were well made cars. They rotted in the same way as the lower end stuff and possessed prehistoric engines. Offering a live axle in the mid-eighties was hardly going to cut it!
So the backdrop was of low expectations from the consumer. Corporate bosses at Leyland, Ford and Vauxhall loved every second and turned out poorly executed dross. Compared to that German cars were awesome: they worked, in the main, were practical and stylish and powerful. The engineering really was far advanced.
However something odd happened in the mid to late eighties: Lancia discovered rust proofing, Datsun became Nissan and undersealed the Bluebird. Saab began putting turbos on the old four.
Following this quiet revolution much better stuff began to emerge from Japan, France, Sweden and Italy. A car like the Fiat Punto wasn't 'hewn from granite' or whatever German cliché people spout. However it didn't rust, was pretty reliable and fulfilled the brief of being a cheap city car.
The Nissan Primera was released with a class leading chassis and eventually got powerful engines. The Corolla never broke down and Citroens and Peugeots came fully galvanised.
Thus my point is that at one point German engineering seemed a lot more advanced than it really was; simply because the bar had been set so low. The Germans haven't lost it - the rest of the world caught up. Now the reference point is that much higher: a Mondeo or Insignia is a far better built car than a Cortina or Victor, German cars aren't above it to the same degree.
Unfair to group the Swedes in there - mid 70s Saabs and Volvos were every bit as overengineered as ze Chermans, and Saab were popping turbos on the slant 4 from 77 iirc.The Earliest imported Golfs and Three Series were up against stuff that was, in terms of quality, woeful. Morris Marina, Alfa Sud, Renault Fuego, Cortina Mark 4, Vauxhall Victor and VX4/90. Those cars had style; I love all of them for what they are and represent, but quality control was virtually non-existent in those days. Consumers would accept trim falling off, engines failing to start and gears refusing to engage in ways no-one would now. My Dad drove in that era and he genuinely had lower expectations of what a car should be capable of.
So the German cars in the middle sector were a lot better. They were more reliable and better built.
At the top, E-Class and Seven Series competed against V8 SD1s, Leyland Jaguars, Granadas, Royales etc
Again none of those were well made cars. They rotted in the same way as the lower end stuff and possessed prehistoric engines. Offering a live axle in the mid-eighties was hardly going to cut it!
So the backdrop was of low expectations from the consumer. Corporate bosses at Leyland, Ford and Vauxhall loved every second and turned out poorly executed dross. Compared to that German cars were awesome: they worked, in the main, were practical and stylish and powerful. The engineering really was far advanced.
However something odd happened in the mid to late eighties: Lancia discovered rust proofing, Datsun became Nissan and undersealed the Bluebird. Saab began putting turbos on the old four.
Following this quiet revolution much better stuff began to emerge from Japan, France, Sweden and Italy. A car like the Fiat Punto wasn't 'hewn from granite' or whatever German cliché people spout. However it didn't rust, was pretty reliable and fulfilled the brief of being a cheap city car.
The Nissan Primera was released with a class leading chassis and eventually got powerful engines. The Corolla never broke down and Citroens and Peugeots came fully galvanised.
Thus my point is that at one point German engineering seemed a lot more advanced than it really was; simply because the bar had been set so low. The Germans haven't lost it - the rest of the world caught up. Now the reference point is that much higher: a Mondeo or Insignia is a far better built car than a Cortina or Victor, German cars aren't above it to the same degree.
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