Heads, can you talk to me please.....
Heads, can you talk to me please.....
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Discussion

NickM450

Original Poster:

2,639 posts

230 months

Friday 23rd August 2013
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After my (hopeful) house move is complete I should have a few spare pennies in my pocket for some more serious work on Winnie.

I have finally decided that instead of going down the MS/Canems route, I want to stick with the Lucas set up for a bit longer and instead do what I should have done in the first place, the heads. From speaking to a few people and reading some posts, my induction/cam work etc. will not be giving me it's full potential as I still have standard heads and I believe this is where most of my gains will come from and make the most of what I already have.

Anyway, ideally I want to be knocking in the door of 300-ish BHP of N/A power. Over to you guys, what spec should I be looking at, where should I look and do they often come up second hand?

Finally, is my dream of 300BHP do-able without really, really deep pockets?

Nick

phazed

22,508 posts

234 months

Friday 23rd August 2013
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Quite doable.

Speak to Rob, shell out about £1K on a set of stage 4 heads and you could get 320 brake.

jamienshelly

1,826 posts

168 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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Hi, I am thinking of doing a similar thing but with a wilder cam, is it worth doing on a 400 as we are all on the hunt for more pony's.
I have thought about buying a scrap 4.6 range rover for the block and using my heads etc, and is the power increase to cost worth it?.

Engineer1949

1,423 posts

174 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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My take and this is only my opinion but it does come from 50 years of playing is if you still want a drivable car by which i mean a vehicle you can bimble down the shops deal with slow moving traffic etc. then wild cams mad heads high compression is not the way to go forced induction is the only way you end up with basically a standard engine for tootling around and a monster when let loose ideal all round.


John

phazed

22,508 posts

234 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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I believe the above is a fair comment but if you have MS or a similar mappable system the downside of a hairy cam can be dialled out.

My 4.6 has a hairy cam, high compression pistons and stage 4 heads and is a pussycat to drive pulling from 1K revs in 5th no problem.

TV8

3,535 posts

205 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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If you change the heads the fueling will need some correction to get the most out of it.

QBee

22,491 posts

174 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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The last post hints at a sinister effect on your pocket. Phazed's advice re £1k spent with Rob is good advice, but many changes require re-mapping of whatever ECU you have. I will assume you are not a mapping guru yourself.

Remapping a 14CUX involves Mark Adams. He's brilliant and not too expensive himself, but by the time you add three to four hours on the rolling road he uses, you are looking at £600-700 a remap, plus the cost of getting to/from Shrewsbury.

Remapping a Canems requires a trip to Wiltshire. I don't know the cost. I don't know if you can do it yourself. All I do know is that you need a rolling road to do it, and if Phazed doesn't do it himself, your remap requires an expert.

Tell me I am wrong, someone.

Hoofa

3,153 posts

238 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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To be honest I'd stick with the Lucas and fit mappable ignition ! Speak to rob is what is say.

Chuffmeister

3,597 posts

167 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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Eann Whalley turbo:

The turbo which is oil and water cooled including manifold, external wastegate, dump valve, intercooler and plumbing no ECU £2850.
With a new ecu, adaptor cable to plug into the original wiring, injectors, raising rate fuel regulator and base map for fueling is £3850.

NickM450

Original Poster:

2,639 posts

230 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
Thanks for the replies folks thumbup

I do love this place sometimes, I get an idea and using my (very) small amount of knowledge it seems to make sense, one post on here on the other hand, and my plan doesn't seem quite so straight forward biggrin

I knew mapping would be needed, but is it needed at the same time? My plan was always to go MS/Canems at some point anyway, I just decided to throw the heads into the mix to make use of what I already have, an enlarged plenum and uprated injectors were also going to be joining the party.

It is a case of what order I should be doing these things in, my pockets will not allow it in one go, as much as I'd like them too frown

Alexdaredevils

5,697 posts

209 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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Get a wide-band gauge installed you might not even need mapping!

Me and Peter managed to get the 14cux working well from trying out different ecu's we had kicking about, decat fuel map, no lambda's and tweaking the afm and fuel pressure

Chuffmeister

3,597 posts

167 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
NickM450 said:
Thanks for the replies folks thumbup

I do love this place sometimes, I get an idea and using my (very) small amount of knowledge it seems to make sense, one post on here on the other hand, and my plan doesn't seem quite so straight forward biggrin

I knew mapping would be needed, but is it needed at the same time? My plan was always to go MS/Canems at some point anyway, I just decided to throw the heads into the mix to make use of what I already have, an enlarged plenum and uprated injectors were also going to be joining the party.

It is a case of what order I should be doing these things in, my pockets will not allow it in one go, as much as I'd like them too frown
If you are going to do it, would you not be best doing it all at once? If you won't make the gain from your new heads without a map, it is probably best to save the money and then try and negotiate a better deal for a larger purchase?

QBee

22,491 posts

174 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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Talk to Rob. It may run without a remap, he will know .........but it either will or won't. I had a new engine from Rob, and a best guess chip from Mark Adams. Was overfuelling low down, went horribly lean above 4500 rpm. Cost me the best part of a grand to get it right, trying local rolling roads and then going back to MA for a custom chip and proper mapping. Not anyone's fault, especially not Rob's. You just need to factor in the mapping and the mapper whenever you change the set up of your engine. Otherwise it's like buying a new computer and expecting it to work on your company's office network without beng set up and customised to their settings. NAFC.

CANEMS Is a great system I hear. The actual kit is well under £1000 I think. The complete job, new loom, ECU and mapping by the Lloyds costs £2100. Drive in, two weeks later, drive out, perfect system. Half the money pays for their labour and mapping expertise. And your peace of mind and not spending weeks and £££s trying to sort it out.

Every time you change major bits on the engine, you need a remap. And that means paying for an expert. Or fiddling with it yourself without 20 years experience. And then paying an expert!!

It's supposed to be fun.....!

Chilliman

12,422 posts

191 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
QBee said:
The last post hints at a sinister effect on your pocket. Phazed's advice re £1k spent with Rob is good advice, but many changes require re-mapping of whatever ECU you have. I will assume you are not a mapping guru yourself.

Remapping a 14CUX involves Mark Adams. He's brilliant and not too expensive himself, but by the time you add three to four hours on the rolling road he uses, you are looking at £600-700 a remap, plus the cost of getting to/from Shrewsbury.

Remapping a Canems requires a trip to Wiltshire. I don't know the cost. I don't know if you can do it yourself. All I do know is that you need a rolling road to do it, and if Phazed doesn't do it himself, your remap requires an expert.

Tell me I am wrong, someone.
You're wrong smile

QBee

22,491 posts

174 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
Chilliman said:
You're wrong smile
Phew. Glad it wasn't you on that chopper Richard..... eek

Chilliman

12,422 posts

191 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
QBee said:
Chilliman said:
You're wrong smile
Phew. Glad it wasn't you on that chopper Richard..... eek
Thanks Anthony, wasn't aware of this until your post.

carsy

3,019 posts

195 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
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I would wait until you can afford the lot and then you are only paying for mapping once. If you can fit the ecu yourself you will save a lot. I fitted an Emerald, made a new loom and got it mapped all for not much more than 1k.

Mark Adams will work out dear. Speak to Jools. Spitfire4v8. Very talented guy and will re map an aftermarket ecu for £250.

Chuffmeister

3,597 posts

167 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
carsy said:
I would wait until you can afford the lot and then you are only paying for mapping once. If you can fit the ecu yourself you will save a lot. I fitted an Emerald, made a new loom and got it mapped all for not much more than 1k.
How difficult was it to do?

Alexdaredevils

5,697 posts

209 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
You wont need a remap just with a set of heads

Jesus! talk about making mountains out if molehills

NickM450

Original Poster:

2,639 posts

230 months

Saturday 24th August 2013
quotequote all
Unfortunately I am one of those owners that is completely inept at spannering cry

I just don't have the knowledge or cojones to do anything myself so it's a visit to my local guy.

I guess I will wait for the house to complete and see what the solicitors leave me with smile I would very much like to do it all in one hit, but I'm guessing that's gonna come in at £3000+ eek

Mind you, if she runs 'ok' with the new heads minus new management then that will suffice until the bank account has recovered thumbup