997 Carrera S - engine damage. Main dealer denies liability
Discussion
To cut a long story short I purchased a Porsche 911 (997 Gen 1) Carrera S 3.8 Cabriolet from a "German car manufacturer" Main dealer (not a small time trader) with only 45500 miles on the clock.
I placed a £500 deposit for the car over the phone. (Dealer is in Maidstone - I'm in Sheffield) A week or so later the car was delivered to me by the salesman.
I test drove car for 30 mins through Friday rush hour traffic. It seemed OK. Plus it was from a main dealer so I'd be covered, right? What could go wrong?(Hindsight is a wonderful thing)
That night the car dumped the contents of it's screen wash bottle onto the road.
So I got the car into the garage the following week.
Got told by the mechanic that the engine was knocking and that there was soot build up around the left-hand exhaust. He also said "Just return it!"
And that "The engine is knackered."
I phoned up the "German car manufacturer" Main dealer. They told me I couldn't reject the car until I had investigation work done to find out what was wrong.
Got investigation work done. Discovered cylinder 6 spark plug oiled up.
The Main dealer was not happy with the level of info from first report. So I had a Porsche Garage perform a second investigation.
The results are:
Two scored bores 3 and 6. Piston damage and compression down on that bank of cylinders.
I obtained 3 quotes ranging from £6,000 to £15,000
Main dealer said that that would be too much so I could have a refund ... an offer that they retracted a week later.
Then I was offered £2000 with the recommendation that I "contribute" towards the work, seeing as the fault was discovered after I bought the car.
Then the offer was retracted altogether and I've had a letter from their solicitor denying all liability, and that the car was fine when it was sold to me 5 days earlier.
I have written quoting:
Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
AND the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 because I paid a £500 deposit by debit card.
But they're maintaining their stance of it was fine when we sold it to you.
"Sold as seen" essentially... from a Main Dealer...?
There have been some "Without Prejudice" discussions, but they are going nowhere. And the figures being discussed are nowhere near the figures required to get the work sorted. It's now 3 months on with no resolution.
I'm not driving the car, I'm having to catch the train and taxis.
What do I do now?
Do I really have to got to court to get a refund / my car fixed?
What's happened to my rights?
I placed a £500 deposit for the car over the phone. (Dealer is in Maidstone - I'm in Sheffield) A week or so later the car was delivered to me by the salesman.
I test drove car for 30 mins through Friday rush hour traffic. It seemed OK. Plus it was from a main dealer so I'd be covered, right? What could go wrong?(Hindsight is a wonderful thing)
That night the car dumped the contents of it's screen wash bottle onto the road.
So I got the car into the garage the following week.
Got told by the mechanic that the engine was knocking and that there was soot build up around the left-hand exhaust. He also said "Just return it!"
And that "The engine is knackered."
I phoned up the "German car manufacturer" Main dealer. They told me I couldn't reject the car until I had investigation work done to find out what was wrong.
Got investigation work done. Discovered cylinder 6 spark plug oiled up.
The Main dealer was not happy with the level of info from first report. So I had a Porsche Garage perform a second investigation.
The results are:
Two scored bores 3 and 6. Piston damage and compression down on that bank of cylinders.
I obtained 3 quotes ranging from £6,000 to £15,000
Main dealer said that that would be too much so I could have a refund ... an offer that they retracted a week later.
Then I was offered £2000 with the recommendation that I "contribute" towards the work, seeing as the fault was discovered after I bought the car.
Then the offer was retracted altogether and I've had a letter from their solicitor denying all liability, and that the car was fine when it was sold to me 5 days earlier.
I have written quoting:
Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
AND the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 because I paid a £500 deposit by debit card.
But they're maintaining their stance of it was fine when we sold it to you.
"Sold as seen" essentially... from a Main Dealer...?
There have been some "Without Prejudice" discussions, but they are going nowhere. And the figures being discussed are nowhere near the figures required to get the work sorted. It's now 3 months on with no resolution.
I'm not driving the car, I'm having to catch the train and taxis.
What do I do now?
Do I really have to got to court to get a refund / my car fixed?
What's happened to my rights?
Big Fluffy One said:
Your rights are still there...it's just that you will have to go to court to enforce them.
As I understand it you have every right to expect them to repair the car or refund your money. Don't accept anything less. Start keeping records of what commuting costs you too; you probably have a decent chance of claiming that back from the dealer too.
scoredbores said:
AND the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 because I paid a £500 deposit by debit card.
Not sure what DSR's have to do with it. I would suggest that they think you are going to be a pushover because you incorrectly quoted law at them.Get a solicitor involved.
scoredbores said:
But they're maintaining their stance of it was fine when we sold it to you.
"Sold as seen" essentially... from a Main Dealer...?
Bugger all. Same as always, dealer or not "Sold as seen" is meaningless. From them the car should be of reasonable quality. Unless you got a massive bargain (because of possible problems) it clearly was not. Also, it is up to them to prove that you caused the damage (if that is what they are claiming) or that it is reasonable for the age, condition and millage of the car."Sold as seen" essentially... from a Main Dealer...?
scoredbores said:
What do I do now?
Do I really have to got to court to get a refund / my car fixed?
What's happened to my rights?
Fraid it looks like you will have to go to court. Do you have any proof of the original offer to repair/refund? If so keep hold of that! Write everything down and talk to a solicitor.Do I really have to got to court to get a refund / my car fixed?
What's happened to my rights?
Nothings happened to your rights, its that they are ignoring them by the sounds of it.
Talk to a solicitor.
You could go the small claims route if you can get the work done for under £10k. It will cost you about £500 up front. IMO worth a try, but only if you are confident doing it yourself. Probably better getting proper legal advice first.
scoredbores said:
I can understand having to take a small time trader to court.
I guess I expected a better level of customer care from a main dealer.
The only difference between an independent trader and a main dealer is that the latter has paid some money to a manufacturer to use their logo.I guess I expected a better level of customer care from a main dealer.
furtive said:
Did it not come with a used car warranty that would cover this damage?
Yes, but it only covers up to £2500. I have to get the engine stripped down, get a guy from the insurance company to inspect it and then they'll decide whether it was an existing issue or not. If they offer to cover it then they pay the strip down cost. If not, I pay for it.I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
scoredbores said:
Fast Bug said:
Is it not an 'approved used car' sale?
I think so, yes. Apparently the car went through a full check and an MOT.Apparently the scored bores and sooted left-hand exhaust weren't discovered.
What does your warranty paperwork say? I'm fairly sure you used to get a booklet about the used scheme. Although it's a long time since I sold them so don't quote me on that.
If it's 100% an approved used car throught he Porsche scheme, then you need to take it up with Porsche Cars GB. They'll come down on the dealer like a ton of bricks and get it sorted for you. Keep all reciepts for travel costs that you've had to pay out for, as you'll be wanting to claim for that as well
An MOT test won't pick up on a scored bore though, and it won't fail the MOT unless there's visable smoke when they do the test either.
If it's not under the approved used car scheme, then you'll need to fight it out with the dealer sadly.
scoredbores said:
I think so, yes. Apparently the car went through a full check and an MOT.
Apparently the scored bores and sooted left-hand exhaust weren't discovered.
To be fair it's pretty hard to see scored bores without taking the engine to bits. I don't think "sooty exhaust" is on the MOT checklist either.Apparently the scored bores and sooted left-hand exhaust weren't discovered.
scoredbores said:
Yes, but it only covers up to £2500. I have to get the engine stripped down, get a guy from the insurance company to inspect it and then they'll decide whether it was an existing issue or not. If they offer to cover it then they pay the strip down cost. If not, I pay for it.
I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
That doesn't sound like a Porsche Approved used car warranty to me, I think you'll need to fight it out with the dealer, sorry.I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
Fast Bug said:
scoredbores said:
Yes, but it only covers up to £2500. I have to get the engine stripped down, get a guy from the insurance company to inspect it and then they'll decide whether it was an existing issue or not. If they offer to cover it then they pay the strip down cost. If not, I pay for it.
I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
That doesn't sound like a Porsche Approved used car warranty to me, I think you'll need to fight it out with the dealer, sorry.I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
Fast Bug said:
scoredbores said:
Yes, but it only covers up to £2500. I have to get the engine stripped down, get a guy from the insurance company to inspect it and then they'll decide whether it was an existing issue or not. If they offer to cover it then they pay the strip down cost. If not, I pay for it.
I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
That doesn't sound like a Porsche Approved used car warranty to me, I think you'll need to fight it out with the dealer, sorry.I've been reliably informed by the Porsche technician that bore scoring is a condition that builds up over many months, not 5 days.
And considering the dealer has yet to pay for the investigative work they promised I'd rather not have an engine in pieces and a strip down and rebuild cost to pay for.
Also I'd have cashed in my 12 month warranty straight away and not be able to claim on pistons or cylinders again.
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