RE: A harsh ride: PH Blog
RE: A harsh ride: PH Blog
Wednesday 28th August 2013

A harsh ride: PH Blog

XFR-S too firm says PH review - not so says Jaguar and off to Gaydon we go



No editor wants to receive a summons. But we got one off the back of our review of the Jaguar XFR-S. In it Nat Barnes said "if you were being polite you'd say the ride was fidgety and if you weren't at times it's verging on unbearable. Cat's eyes crash through the cabin and you feel every expansion strip. Make no mistake, it's so firm it sometimes makes an Audi feel compliant."

XFR-S very different in sinister grey/small wing
XFR-S very different in sinister grey/small wing
Jaguar begged to differ and requested our attendance at Gaydon to spend some time with Mike Cross in an XFR-S. No chore - Mike is always fascinating company and this was a friendly invitation rather than a gun to the head.

Mike and I have discussed the 'science of flow' thing before, his job basically being the articulation of subjective ride and handling nuances into hard data for the engineers. Tools for the job? A nicely sinister looking XFR-S in dark grey with the optional small wing, an XJR and a couple of hours to kill on the Gaydon test track.

In terms of differences over the XFR Mike asserts that the damper hardware and anti-roll bars are identical. The steel springs are up 37.5 per cent front and 40 per cent rear and the tyres are 10mm wider 265/295 front/rear over the XFR's with both cars running 20-inch wheels as standard.

Mike on hand to demonstrate the principle
Mike on hand to demonstrate the principle
Jaguar's high speed test track uses a section of the old V-bomber runway and speeds into the 170s are easily achieved, subsidence and other natural lumps and bumps meaning the wide, fast corners have plenty of unsettling surprises including a vicious dip at the entry to the 120mph left-hander at the bottom. Which the R-S falls four-square into and damps the return stroke without a quiver. In Mike's view we can tolerate a fair amount of vertical movement - sufficiently damped of course - but it's the porpoising into dips that really unsettles both car and driver.

High speed stability is one thing but here in the UK we're more likely to be driving at sub-60mph speeds on broken, bumpy roads not 150mph-plus on smooth Autobahn.

A tighter handling circuit with vicious bumps, potholes, simulated frost damage, harsh transverse ridges and 'noisy' tarmac is probably more representative and here a sense of Nat's issue with the ride does show. This is an exaggerated test surface but the fat tyres do steamroller over it, harsher bumps thump through and there's a definite jiggle factor most Jags smother.

So, basically, you need to wheelie your car...
So, basically, you need to wheelie your car...
But it's not brittle, the initial damper movement is smooth and even with the firmer springs you can feel full travel of the suspension being used. The XFR-S is not a light car but these violent weight transfers feel well contained. Simplistically it feels 'firm' but controlled.

We do the same in Dynamic mode, which basically narrows the window of the dampers and raises the lower threshold of the operating range. Now it really does feel pretty harsh, but that's the purpose of this test track. Then an interesting thing on a rapid-fire series of transverse bumps. And here the fore-aft damping keeps the car flat, despite the pile-driver impacts and rapid undulations. If you've ever ridden off-road on two wheels think of it as the difference between the nodding donkey sensation of rolling through a dip versus raising the front wheel, keeping your body level and 'pumping' through the compression - see here for an explanation!

When we switch to the more softly sprung and damped XJR it actually feels more unsettled through this same section, demonstrating 'firmer' doesn't always equate to 'less comfortable'. The XJR also feels like it's rolling onto its outside tyre walls on a high-speed right the XFR-S barely flinches at. In Dynamic mode the XJR feels a lot better. But does hitting the button actually raise the cornering limits?

Osteopath on speed dial? Your call
Osteopath on speed dial? Your call
Mike answers thoughtfully, saying in a steady state no it doesn't. Nor does it affect the amount of roll under load, though it does change the speed of its onset and the transient behaviour on turn-in can be played with via the software and sensors. From the wheel that might mean a temporary firming of the rear dampers for a 'sharper' turn-in, something I could feel even from the passenger seat of the XJR.

Of course, we're talking 550hp mega saloons here. And if you wanted to transport that apocryphal box of eggs across a ploughed field - or around Jaguar's test track - and not end up with them ready scrambled you'd still use a 2CV, not an XFR-S.

Dan

[Sources: MPORA]

Author
Discussion

MissChief

Original Poster:

8,014 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Video no workeo.

XJR500bhp

1,205 posts

241 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Yes it does

exceed

455 posts

207 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Small typo:

Dan Trent said:
The XJR also feels like it's rolling onto its outside tyre walls on a high-speed right the XJR-S barely flinches at.
Needs to be XFR-S. May confuse the masses into Jaguar releasing an XJR-S (which sounds great to my ears!)

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
exceed said:
Needs to be XFR-S. May confuse the masses into Jaguar releasing an XJR-S (which sounds great to my ears!)
Oops, thanks! I knew I'd get my mucking Jags fuddled at some point in the piece.

Sorted.

And, no, no XJR-S as far as I'm aware of. We were in the XJR on the runway and I was about to comment there was quite a lot of wind noise and then I saw we were doing 175mph, which it reached with absolutely no difficulty whatsoever. biggrin

Dan

TheRoadWarrior

1,242 posts

209 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Why was the comparison not made between the XFR and XFR-S, given the original author stated that the XFR-S was less comfortable than the standard XFR?

That would have been a direct comparison, as it stands you're comparing 2 totally different cars. Of course the XJR is going to feel different over a mid corner bump- it has a different wheel base, mass, mass distribution, alu vs steel construction etc etc

exceed

455 posts

207 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Dan Trent said:
And, no, no XJR-S as far as I'm aware of. We were in the XJR on the runway and I was about to comment there was quite a lot of wind noise and then I saw we were doing 175mph, which it reached with absolutely no difficulty whatsoever. biggrin

Dan
I can tell you I've never seen my dad so excited for a car after hearing about the XJR.

Currently he's got an XJ Supersport with a measly 510hp laugh.

Also good to know you survived the firing squad at Jaguar!

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
TheRoadWarrior said:
Why was the comparison not made between the XFR and XFR-S, given the original author stated that the XFR-S was less comfortable than the standard XFR?

That would have been a direct comparison, as it stands you're comparing 2 totally different cars. Of course the XJR is going to feel different over a mid corner bump- it has a different wheel base, mass, mass distribution, alu vs steel construction etc etc
Entirely fair. It was a relatively ad hoc arrangement off the back of something else we were doing there so we went with what we got. A back to back is a story I think we should do though and we'll get the cars booked in to that end. Watch this space! Personally I'm inclined to think the XFR probably answers most of the questions you'd ever raise about a hot XF but a chance to do a back to back with the -S seems like a fun assignment we'll selflessly put together. wink

Cheers,

Dan

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
exceed said:
I can tell you I've never seen my dad so excited for a car after hearing about the XJR.

Currently he's got an XJ Supersport with a measly 510hp laugh.
I've had the pleasure of a Supersport on the Autobahn and it was bloomin' brilliant. Hope your dad has too because the way that thing pulls in the 120+ range is amazing. Also good fun flashing Mercs/BMWs/Audis stuck on their 155 limiters out of the way too. Story on that here, FWIW.

Following Dale round the 'ring and watching the XJ Supersports cornering on three wheels was impressive to say the least too.

Cheers,

Dan

Impasse

15,099 posts

272 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
So what can we conclude from this most recent appraisal? Are we now not to trust Haymarket writers on their initial impressions? Are the sporty Jaguars wearing concrete suspension components?

Or are these two issues reasonably well intertwined and can only be resolved with the help of an engineering guru by your side, a day of hooning in someone else's car and a free lunch?
Where do I sign?

Cotic

469 posts

183 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
That's you told then.

PH - "rides too stiff"

JAG - "You're not doing it right"

PH - "Oh."

Bisonhead

1,598 posts

220 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Ageed, I dont quite understand this piece?!

It doesnt really do anything other than explain why the initial test was correct...

As stated, perhaps the day in Jag super saloons and a free lunch may have had something to do with it wink
Also, Jag have gone done slightly in my perceptions by trying to force their view of ride comfort on customers rather than the other wa around...essentially bullying journalists into changing an opinion...or certainly trying to!

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Impasse said:
So what can we conclude from this most recent appraisal? Are we now not to trust Haymarket writers on their initial impressions? Are the sporty Jaguars wearing concrete suspension components?
I wasn't on the launch so didn't drive the route and roads Nat did so his opinion of that car on that day remains valid, of course. And there's room for different views on stuff within the PH contribs team - you'd get a different evaluation of Mk1 MX-5s from Harris than you would from me for instance! biggrin

Don't see anything wrong with giving Jaguar right of reply and a chance for us to explore a particular issue in more detail/with greater insight either.

There are subjective elements to ride too. And it was interesting that Mike reckons a lot of what hacks harp on about doesn't necessarily tally with what customers actually want. It's the flipside of this argument but he said comfort is a much bigger priority for most Jag customers than 'sportiness' but in this instance with the XFR already there they had some headroom to go a bit more extreme. That may or may not be to all tastes. But the regular R is still there of course.

Cheers,

Dan

Prawnboy

1,326 posts

178 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Bisonhead said:
Ageed, I dont quite understand this piece?!

It doesnt really do anything other than explain why the initial test was correct...

As stated, perhaps the day in Jag super saloons and a free lunch may have had something to do with it wink
Also, Jag have gone done slightly in my perceptions by trying to force their view of ride comfort on customers rather than the other wa around...essentially bullying journalists into changing an opinion...or certainly trying to!
Agreed, very weird article.

Lowtimer

4,293 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Prawnboy said:
Bisonhead said:
Ageed, I dont quite understand this piece?!

It doesnt really do anything other than explain why the initial test was correct...

As stated, perhaps the day in Jag super saloons and a free lunch may have had something to do with it wink
Also, Jag have gone done slightly in my perceptions by trying to force their view of ride comfort on customers rather than the other wa around...essentially bullying journalists into changing an opinion...or certainly trying to!
Agreed, very weird article.
Yep, I agree. The fact is that Jaguar snowed you. Nothing Mike Cross did on the day with you addressed the question of whether the XFR-S has a sufficiently refined ride quality. All it showed was that if you push over selected surfaces at high enough speeds and loads, a completely different platform Jag, the XJR (which has also been independently criticised for surprisingly pattery and harsh ride) is worse.

What matters, and what they haven't gone into, is any objective measurement of ride and bump-thump versus competitors' cars. What's a market-acceptable ride for a luxobarge on steroids is only meaningfully measured in comparison with competitors. If Jag had brought along an AMG E-Class and an M5 and shown how the XFR-S ride beats their ride, on a range of real-life roads at real-life speeds, then I would be impressed. But in doing it without the competition, on their selected test surfaces, driving at Mike Cross speeds, they have completely failed to make a meaningful point.

It is no surprise that a car can be made to look good on the test circuit that you've developed it on, if you're the factory test driver. Those are the absolutely optimum conditions for making it look as good as it can look. But buyers of these cars don't use them to lap Gaydon.

Edited by Lowtimer on Wednesday 28th August 14:12

JonathanLegard

5,196 posts

268 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
I got summoned to TVR over something I wrote once. Told Wheeler to stick it up his jacksey. We had a better working relationship after that.

Not certain that approach would work with JLR though.

Lowtimer

4,293 posts

199 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Peter Wheeler was like that. I think JLR may be developing a touch of the Ferrari attitude.

RTH

1,059 posts

243 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Depends whether you want a car to drive in public in Britain or just on a racetrack.

Jayinjapan

102 posts

177 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Prawnboy said:
Bisonhead said:
Ageed, I dont quite understand this piece?!

It doesnt really do anything other than explain why the initial test was correct...

As stated, perhaps the day in Jag super saloons and a free lunch may have had something to do with it wink
Also, Jag have gone done slightly in my perceptions by trying to force their view of ride comfort on customers rather than the other wa around...essentially bullying journalists into changing an opinion...or certainly trying to!
Agreed, very weird article.
Me too. Have read it twice and can't see anything that proves the original writers conclusion that the ride was too harsh on the XFR-S was wrong in any way, just that different cars handle differently in different situations at different speeds. I am, of course, not the brightest bulb in the box so I may be missing something, perhaps it's the tag lines and introduction... confused

predding

457 posts

247 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
Bisonhead said:
Ageed, I dont quite understand this piece?!

It doesnt really do anything other than explain why the initial test was correct...

As stated, perhaps the day in Jag super saloons and a free lunch may have had something to do with it wink
Also, Jag have gone done slightly in my perceptions by trying to force their view of ride comfort on customers rather than the other wa around...essentially bullying journalists into changing an opinion...or certainly trying to!
Indeed +1 and trolls off back down the BMW showroom...

Spencely

9 posts

184 months

Wednesday 28th August 2013
quotequote all
It shouldn't need a Jaguar engineer to tell anyone their car doesn't have a harsh ride! The term "subjective" was mentioned I think, and the initial road testers "subjective" opinion was it rode too harshly! Jaguar saying "no it doesn't" doesn't make it so! Only in their opinion!