Help needed for second opinion / to sell damaged 911
Discussion
Hi All
I have been in the unfortunate position of being involved in an accident with my 911 Gen1 Convertible. The insurance company have taken it to one of their garages which use official Porsche parts etc, and have estimated this damage to be around 27k in repairs, which I think is ridiculous as the damage is mostly panel damage to the front left (passenger side) and possibly suspension damage too. It is my feeling that the garage wants to make their buck from the insurance company, however the caveat is that due to a technicality which I can't go into, the insurance company will not cover me, so I am responsible for all associated costs plus the repair of the car.
This puts me in an extremely unfortunate position of not being able to afford the quoted costs so I am looking for options:
P
I have been in the unfortunate position of being involved in an accident with my 911 Gen1 Convertible. The insurance company have taken it to one of their garages which use official Porsche parts etc, and have estimated this damage to be around 27k in repairs, which I think is ridiculous as the damage is mostly panel damage to the front left (passenger side) and possibly suspension damage too. It is my feeling that the garage wants to make their buck from the insurance company, however the caveat is that due to a technicality which I can't go into, the insurance company will not cover me, so I am responsible for all associated costs plus the repair of the car.
This puts me in an extremely unfortunate position of not being able to afford the quoted costs so I am looking for options:
- I am thinking about getting a second opinion and I'd like to know if anybody can recommend a good, trusted place for doing this? I am based in West London.
- If the second opinion still turns out to be un economical to fix, then is it better to try and sell the car as-is and what do you think I could ask for it in terms of cash value?
- For what it's worth, the car has just had a recent full service and 1 year OPC warranty slapped onto it, and further was in excellent condition with no known faults or needed repairs prior to the accident.
P
Edited by Peter Loew on Friday 30th August 12:12
Edited by Peter Loew on Wednesday 4th September 10:31
Edited by Peter Loew on Wednesday 4th September 10:32
Had a similar situation with an AMG I once owned - housemate was driving it as I'd lent it to him while I was on holiday. He crashed it, and was only covered 3rd party,
I sold the wreck and subtracted it off what he owed me. He paid up (proper mate) and I got a new car. We are still friends to this day, and I now run insurance that covers anyone to drive my toys.
Getting it fixed on the cheap probably isn't a great option, you'll always worry about the safety when you are in it. If the chassis has bent (quite possible looking at the pics) it may not drive as sweetly as before either. Having said that I found a few mates who offered to out my merc back together for half the cost of the official quote, but it would have involved a lot of bodging which would have affected the cars value anyway - so wouldn't save anything in the long run..
I sold the wreck and subtracted it off what he owed me. He paid up (proper mate) and I got a new car. We are still friends to this day, and I now run insurance that covers anyone to drive my toys.
Getting it fixed on the cheap probably isn't a great option, you'll always worry about the safety when you are in it. If the chassis has bent (quite possible looking at the pics) it may not drive as sweetly as before either. Having said that I found a few mates who offered to out my merc back together for half the cost of the official quote, but it would have involved a lot of bodging which would have affected the cars value anyway - so wouldn't save anything in the long run..
Sorry to hear of this.
I can't offer much help other than to suggest that the insurer will be using all brand-new parts and repraying to a premium standard etc etc.
To reduce the costs of repair, I'm sure speaking to a local indi would be a better bet and sourcing used parts (maybe from Porschapart) to keep the costs down?
I only know indi's in the north so can't offer any recommendations unfortunately, but it would be worth giving them a call to get an estimate.
Best of luck.
I can't offer much help other than to suggest that the insurer will be using all brand-new parts and repraying to a premium standard etc etc.
To reduce the costs of repair, I'm sure speaking to a local indi would be a better bet and sourcing used parts (maybe from Porschapart) to keep the costs down?
I only know indi's in the north so can't offer any recommendations unfortunately, but it would be worth giving them a call to get an estimate.
Best of luck.
Just a thought, but I'd probably speak to RPM Technik, not sure if it's the sort of work they would take on, but you could get them to sprinkle a few 997 CSR options in there - I've seen there 997 CSR a couple of times and it's been built to a very high standard - high spec aftermarket parts may be well priced against OEM bits.
Give 911 Bodyshop a call, they are based in Wembley, independent and do this sort of work all the time. I've seen tracked GT3's in there being repaired due to off road excursions. I've been using them for the last 4 years and really rate them. They should be able to give you an idea of costs and offer valuable advice.
The damage is substantial.
27K is about right. (03 996 Turbo hit a mule deer and after front bumper cover, fender, front trunk lid, radiator, AC condenser two tires, one wheel, headlight, and other assorted hardware and paint, the cost to repair came to over $25K.)
In fact I think 27K may be a bit of an underestimate.
I see tub/chassis damage that requires time on a Celette Bench to straighten the car.
Passenger air bag going off generally ruin the dash and a new dash costs like crazy (over $2K for the one in my 08 Cayman S) on top of the roll over bar hardware and their pre-tensioners deployed.
Advertise the car for sale as is where is and post lots of pics.
Or call various Porsche salvage businesses and see what you get offered for the car.
You can try a cheap repair but my guess is you'll end up with a car that is a mess to look at, drive. It will be much less than it was before the accident.
The car must be checked for straightness and brought back into spec. This is required for a proper repair. The rest of the body panels will not fit properly and the trunk will not close/seal properly, and the alignment adjustment will be used up to get the wheels close to their right position.
My experience with used parts is limited but the parts that were available were nearly as bad as the parts on the car. They had to be rejected.
Either fix car right or sell it for a parts donor car.
27K is about right. (03 996 Turbo hit a mule deer and after front bumper cover, fender, front trunk lid, radiator, AC condenser two tires, one wheel, headlight, and other assorted hardware and paint, the cost to repair came to over $25K.)
In fact I think 27K may be a bit of an underestimate.
I see tub/chassis damage that requires time on a Celette Bench to straighten the car.
Passenger air bag going off generally ruin the dash and a new dash costs like crazy (over $2K for the one in my 08 Cayman S) on top of the roll over bar hardware and their pre-tensioners deployed.
Advertise the car for sale as is where is and post lots of pics.
Or call various Porsche salvage businesses and see what you get offered for the car.
You can try a cheap repair but my guess is you'll end up with a car that is a mess to look at, drive. It will be much less than it was before the accident.
The car must be checked for straightness and brought back into spec. This is required for a proper repair. The rest of the body panels will not fit properly and the trunk will not close/seal properly, and the alignment adjustment will be used up to get the wheels close to their right position.
My experience with used parts is limited but the parts that were available were nearly as bad as the parts on the car. They had to be rejected.
Either fix car right or sell it for a parts donor car.
steve singh said:
Not insured due to a technicality - ouch.
On the assumption you were NOT trying to pull the wool over the insurers eyes by blatently lying about something and you weren't drunk when you had the accident, you might want to take the issue up with an ombudsman before shelling out.
+1On the assumption you were NOT trying to pull the wool over the insurers eyes by blatently lying about something and you weren't drunk when you had the accident, you might want to take the issue up with an ombudsman before shelling out.
Very rare that an insurer will fail to pay?
Helicopter123 said:
steve singh said:
Not insured due to a technicality - ouch.
On the assumption you were NOT trying to pull the wool over the insurers eyes by blatently lying about something and you weren't drunk when you had the accident, you might want to take the issue up with an ombudsman before shelling out.
+1On the assumption you were NOT trying to pull the wool over the insurers eyes by blatently lying about something and you weren't drunk when you had the accident, you might want to take the issue up with an ombudsman before shelling out.
Very rare that an insurer will fail to pay?
Back on topic, what was the car worth pre-accident and what are the remaining parts of the car worth?
The damage is perfectly repairable. That's the sort of damage that would be fixed in 2 days tops where I am at the moment. Excluding painting. Even if the chassis needs realignment, FFS, manufacturers provide measurements specifically for bodyshops so that they can do this correctly. Can't tell however from the pics what is needed, impossible. Instinct says no chassis damage however, as it seems to have had a close shave. But suspension components, looks some will probably have to be replaced.
The killer is the parts cost, which quite frankly are ludicrous. Not sure 997, but apparently just my front headlamp (996) costs over a grand, and at another extreme I have just been quoted £3.60 each for rather unassuming M8x28 10.9 bolts (exhaust manifold).
Unfortunately whichever bodyshop you go to will not be able/willing to go to the trouble to reduce the parts cost.
Certainly 27k is highly entertaining, would love to see the labour element in that.
Option 1, if a more realistic figure may be acceptable to you then get a number of quotes.
Second option, sell for salvage. The car WILL be repaired, by someone who will then go for option 3:
Buy as many parts as you can from breakers yards. Or Ebay. Or wherever suits. You should save £££. Then get the car repaired.
The latter is the cheapest way of going about it, but obviously the most involving. You would need time to amass the parts.
So it's up to you.
The killer is the parts cost, which quite frankly are ludicrous. Not sure 997, but apparently just my front headlamp (996) costs over a grand, and at another extreme I have just been quoted £3.60 each for rather unassuming M8x28 10.9 bolts (exhaust manifold).
Unfortunately whichever bodyshop you go to will not be able/willing to go to the trouble to reduce the parts cost.
Certainly 27k is highly entertaining, would love to see the labour element in that.
Option 1, if a more realistic figure may be acceptable to you then get a number of quotes.
Second option, sell for salvage. The car WILL be repaired, by someone who will then go for option 3:
Buy as many parts as you can from breakers yards. Or Ebay. Or wherever suits. You should save £££. Then get the car repaired.
The latter is the cheapest way of going about it, but obviously the most involving. You would need time to amass the parts.
So it's up to you.
2 days? Right...
I think the damage is as I said earlier, substantial.
BTW, my 08 Cayman S suffered a similar impact at that same front wheel area and was totaled when the estimate to repair climbed to over $40K. Brand new car too.
If the suspension is damaged tub is bent. (No pic straight on with the front lid open but I suspect a pic would clearly show the front trunk cavity out of shape which needs to be dealt with.) The car has to be torn down -- running gear removed -- and placed on a Celette Bench and hard points checked for out of position condition and brought back into position. Shops in the USA do not carry the fixtures/tools for this. They have to be ordered (rented) from Celette. This is done to ensure they are kept in good repair.
Parts have to be ordered. New parts is one thing. But any used parts bring with them the risk of not being usable or having problems. I'm thinking of for instance A/C condenser and radiator.
The A/C and coolant system need to be made whole again and the A/C refilled. This requires a one hour vacuum and then a refill of refrigerant and sufficient oil to make up what was removed and lost from the replacement of the damaged condenser.
The suspension/steering components have to fitted and the car aligned.
Seat belts, air bags and dash have to be replaced. The car has to be connected to a PIWIS2 and the air bag system checked out.
And then there is the prep and test fitting of the new body panels then painting and finishing and final assembly.
2 days? Only if the person doing the work commutes in from near the North Pole and changes into his work clothes in a phone booth.
I think the damage is as I said earlier, substantial.
BTW, my 08 Cayman S suffered a similar impact at that same front wheel area and was totaled when the estimate to repair climbed to over $40K. Brand new car too.
If the suspension is damaged tub is bent. (No pic straight on with the front lid open but I suspect a pic would clearly show the front trunk cavity out of shape which needs to be dealt with.) The car has to be torn down -- running gear removed -- and placed on a Celette Bench and hard points checked for out of position condition and brought back into position. Shops in the USA do not carry the fixtures/tools for this. They have to be ordered (rented) from Celette. This is done to ensure they are kept in good repair.
Parts have to be ordered. New parts is one thing. But any used parts bring with them the risk of not being usable or having problems. I'm thinking of for instance A/C condenser and radiator.
The A/C and coolant system need to be made whole again and the A/C refilled. This requires a one hour vacuum and then a refill of refrigerant and sufficient oil to make up what was removed and lost from the replacement of the damaged condenser.
The suspension/steering components have to fitted and the car aligned.
Seat belts, air bags and dash have to be replaced. The car has to be connected to a PIWIS2 and the air bag system checked out.
And then there is the prep and test fitting of the new body panels then painting and finishing and final assembly.
2 days? Only if the person doing the work commutes in from near the North Pole and changes into his work clothes in a phone booth.
Peter Loew said:
Hi All
I have been in the unfortunate position of being involved in an accident with my 911 Gen1 Convertible. The insurance company have taken it to one of their garages which use official Porsche parts etc, and have estimated this damage to be around 27k in repairs, which I think is ridiculous as the damage is mostly panel damage to the front left (passenger side) and possibly suspension damage too. It is my feeling that the garage wants to make their buck from the insurance company, however the caveat is that due to a technicality which I can't go into, the insurance company will not cover me, so I am responsible for all associated costs plus the repair of the car.
This puts me in an extremely unfortunate position of not being able to afford the quoted costs so I am looking for options:
The car was turning a corner when it collided into a width-restricted pole, it wasn't going fast but the angle it went into the pole meant that the left passenger side panels were destroyed up to the wheel. The airbags also deployed as did the rear safety bars. I have attached some pics below for you to click on, and I would really appreciate any immediate help anybody could offer. The rest of the car is undamaged.
Many thanks in advance.
P
OP, I can see it. Mine 10 years ago (964) I spun and headed backwards into a embankment. Tailpipe dragging along the floor but still drove it to work, no bodyshell/chassis damage, I really thought of having a go myself at repair.I have been in the unfortunate position of being involved in an accident with my 911 Gen1 Convertible. The insurance company have taken it to one of their garages which use official Porsche parts etc, and have estimated this damage to be around 27k in repairs, which I think is ridiculous as the damage is mostly panel damage to the front left (passenger side) and possibly suspension damage too. It is my feeling that the garage wants to make their buck from the insurance company, however the caveat is that due to a technicality which I can't go into, the insurance company will not cover me, so I am responsible for all associated costs plus the repair of the car.
This puts me in an extremely unfortunate position of not being able to afford the quoted costs so I am looking for options:
- I am thinking about getting a second opinion and I'd like to know if anybody can recommend a good, trusted place for doing this? I am based in West London.
- If the second opinion still turns out to be un economical to fix, then is it better to try and sell the car as-is and what do you think I could ask for it in terms of cash value?
- For what it's worth, the car has just had a recent full service and 1 year OPC warranty slapped onto it, and further was in excellent condition with no known faults or needed repairs prior to the accident.
The car was turning a corner when it collided into a width-restricted pole, it wasn't going fast but the angle it went into the pole meant that the left passenger side panels were destroyed up to the wheel. The airbags also deployed as did the rear safety bars. I have attached some pics below for you to click on, and I would really appreciate any immediate help anybody could offer. The rest of the car is undamaged.
Many thanks in advance.
P
Edited by Peter Loew on Friday 30th August 12:12
Anyway in the end, off it went to an approved Porsche bodyshop. Came back 6 weeks later and nearly 10K spent on her.
I had a list of the parts installed with prices, it was horrific what certain parts were charged out at. It was also amazing just how many parts were 'replaced'.
not a 911, but similar issue.
I had a 1.4 astra which I damaged, and I got a quote to repair it with second hand parts plus some parts I had of a Gsi (suspension and wheels), and it came to £500.
Insurance bodyshop said they stopped counting at £2000.
However, I CBA'd buying it back, so just negotiated hard on it's value. (From £600 offer up to £1500 accepted )
I had a 1.4 astra which I damaged, and I got a quote to repair it with second hand parts plus some parts I had of a Gsi (suspension and wheels), and it came to £500.
Insurance bodyshop said they stopped counting at £2000.
However, I CBA'd buying it back, so just negotiated hard on it's value. (From £600 offer up to £1500 accepted )
Rockster said:
2 days? Right...
I think the damage is as I said earlier, substantial.
BTW, my 08 Cayman S suffered a similar impact at that same front wheel area and was totaled when the estimate to repair climbed to over $40K. Brand new car too.
If the suspension is damaged tub is bent. (No pic straight on with the front lid open but I suspect a pic would clearly show the front trunk cavity out of shape which needs to be dealt with.) The car has to be torn down -- running gear removed -- and placed on a Celette Bench and hard points checked for out of position condition and brought back into position. Shops in the USA do not carry the fixtures/tools for this. They have to be ordered (rented) from Celette. This is done to ensure they are kept in good repair.
Parts have to be ordered. New parts is one thing. But any used parts bring with them the risk of not being usable or having problems. I'm thinking of for instance A/C condenser and radiator.
The A/C and coolant system need to be made whole again and the A/C refilled. This requires a one hour vacuum and then a refill of refrigerant and sufficient oil to make up what was removed and lost from the replacement of the damaged condenser.
The suspension/steering components have to fitted and the car aligned.
Seat belts, air bags and dash have to be replaced. The car has to be connected to a PIWIS2 and the air bag system checked out.
And then there is the prep and test fitting of the new body panels then painting and finishing and final assembly.
2 days? Only if the person doing the work commutes in from near the North Pole and changes into his work clothes in a phone booth.
I was being reasonable. I have seen worse being straightened out in a day. By one man and an assistant. I refer only to the bodywork aspect. Certainly dash airbags and any of that, I have no real idea what sort of work it involves, but it may be easier than expected, the modular construction means that as an example my entire instrument cluster is off and out of the car in 5 minutes. Takes even less to get the actual steering airbag assy out, just two t25 screws.I think the damage is as I said earlier, substantial.
BTW, my 08 Cayman S suffered a similar impact at that same front wheel area and was totaled when the estimate to repair climbed to over $40K. Brand new car too.
If the suspension is damaged tub is bent. (No pic straight on with the front lid open but I suspect a pic would clearly show the front trunk cavity out of shape which needs to be dealt with.) The car has to be torn down -- running gear removed -- and placed on a Celette Bench and hard points checked for out of position condition and brought back into position. Shops in the USA do not carry the fixtures/tools for this. They have to be ordered (rented) from Celette. This is done to ensure they are kept in good repair.
Parts have to be ordered. New parts is one thing. But any used parts bring with them the risk of not being usable or having problems. I'm thinking of for instance A/C condenser and radiator.
The A/C and coolant system need to be made whole again and the A/C refilled. This requires a one hour vacuum and then a refill of refrigerant and sufficient oil to make up what was removed and lost from the replacement of the damaged condenser.
The suspension/steering components have to fitted and the car aligned.
Seat belts, air bags and dash have to be replaced. The car has to be connected to a PIWIS2 and the air bag system checked out.
And then there is the prep and test fitting of the new body panels then painting and finishing and final assembly.
2 days? Only if the person doing the work commutes in from near the North Pole and changes into his work clothes in a phone booth.
Cartainly there is some time involved in refitting the rad frame, rad, fan assy, aircon condeser, and hoses, and eventually re-gassing, but aside the latter which is no big deal, if it takes any one more than 45 minutes tops to do one side, with bumper already off, they are in the wrong job. I have had the radiators out of my car 3 times and the most time consuming thing for me, is simply jacking up the car carefully so I can get both wheels off, if I am doing both sides. Oh and one hose is a bit of a pig to pop off.
Anyway. Perhaps in the US people don't rush
Seriously, at the moment I don't have the time to scour all the usual sources for parts, plus my garage is already over-full so the logistics are highly awkward, if this were not the case however then for the right price I would be tempted to plonk that car atop a transporter and take it on a one way trip across Europe...
996TT02 said:
... if this were not the case however then for the right price I would be tempted to plonk that car atop a transporter and take it on a one way trip across Europe...
Good point - last time I was in Belgium seeing Gert @ Carnewal, I remember he was working on a car from the UK that had much more serious damage than the OP's pics would suggest... Perhaps worth sending him some pics in case he can give you an idea of costs (albeit I'm sure it will be difficult for anyone to give a precise estimate before looking at the car themselves).Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff