Test day etiquette - Am I being unreasonable?
Discussion
So, I'm not necessarily intending this to be a rant, but it may end up being one :P
Some background: A few of us Caterhams went along to today's test day at Oulton in preparation for our race there in two weeks. The Porsche Boxters and 924s are racing there this weekend (all in one grid) and they've been present at a number of our race meetings this year. They were in the same sessions as us today. The 924s are quite a bit slower than any of the Caterhams, but the Boxters aren't far off. Over a lap, they're around 3 to 4s a lap slower than my Supersport, but they juuuuust have the legs on us under acceleration. The R300s are quite a bit faster than them (around 8s)
Now...here comes the rant bit: On two ocassions, I encountered two separate Boxter drivers who behaved unacceptably in my opinion. Am I being unreasonable to expect that, on a test day, a driver should let another driver, from a different championship, through if said driver has caught them quite quickly and has been stuck on their tail for 2 laps? Is it then reasonable of me to give the generally recognised sign of discontent (and arm in the air) at the driver in front ignoring a number of blue flags over these two laps? Is it then unreasonable for me to be surprised to see the Boxter driver put his arm out of the window and give me the bird?! At this point I realised he wasn't going to let me past, so I backed off and found some space feeling somewhat offended by his behavior.
This would have been somewhat annoying if it was a one off, however, two sessions later, I encountered a different driver who did the same thing. I followed behind for two laps whilst he proceeded to aggressively block me. He then ran wide at the first corner going on to the grasscrete (4 wheels off) but kept his foot in, came back on track and squeezed me (despite me being alongside). Later this lap, the driver ran wide on the last corner which enabled me to get past. Immediately, he tried to overtake into the first corner, attempting to out brake me and aggressively flashing his lights at me when I moved to the middle of the track to indicate I didn't intend to let him past me. I then pulled around a 3-4s gap in 1 lap.
I was not the only person who got squeezed by this driver, and I can't really understand why they would behave like this. On the whole, all the other Porsche drivers were absolutely fine, and I think generally they also realise there's no prizes for racing against uncomparable cars on a test day.
So...am I being unreasonable to expect that generally, on a test day, drivers of different championships should be polite and courteous to each other and let faster cars through? I did a test at Snetterton last week where there were a number of Clio Cup cars. Over a lap, there's around a 0.5s deficit in their favour, and I wouldn't think of trying to engage in any kind of race with them. They're there to do their testing, I'm there to do mine.
I appreciate that it can be annoying if there are hundreds of faster cars, but in this instance Caterhams were in the minority. In fact, there were only 2 cars (myself and one other) that they would have had to have lifted for.
So...should I have gone and confronted the two drivers in question (something which I generally try to avoid as what happens on track generally should stay there in my opinion), or should I send someone an email to suggest they have a word? Or should I just leave it and let them get on with it? My only concern is that it could end up with an accident. Could I have done anything different? If there had been less cars on track, I'd have backed off a lot, however, it was next to impossible to get a clear lap.
Discuss :P
Some background: A few of us Caterhams went along to today's test day at Oulton in preparation for our race there in two weeks. The Porsche Boxters and 924s are racing there this weekend (all in one grid) and they've been present at a number of our race meetings this year. They were in the same sessions as us today. The 924s are quite a bit slower than any of the Caterhams, but the Boxters aren't far off. Over a lap, they're around 3 to 4s a lap slower than my Supersport, but they juuuuust have the legs on us under acceleration. The R300s are quite a bit faster than them (around 8s)
Now...here comes the rant bit: On two ocassions, I encountered two separate Boxter drivers who behaved unacceptably in my opinion. Am I being unreasonable to expect that, on a test day, a driver should let another driver, from a different championship, through if said driver has caught them quite quickly and has been stuck on their tail for 2 laps? Is it then reasonable of me to give the generally recognised sign of discontent (and arm in the air) at the driver in front ignoring a number of blue flags over these two laps? Is it then unreasonable for me to be surprised to see the Boxter driver put his arm out of the window and give me the bird?! At this point I realised he wasn't going to let me past, so I backed off and found some space feeling somewhat offended by his behavior.
This would have been somewhat annoying if it was a one off, however, two sessions later, I encountered a different driver who did the same thing. I followed behind for two laps whilst he proceeded to aggressively block me. He then ran wide at the first corner going on to the grasscrete (4 wheels off) but kept his foot in, came back on track and squeezed me (despite me being alongside). Later this lap, the driver ran wide on the last corner which enabled me to get past. Immediately, he tried to overtake into the first corner, attempting to out brake me and aggressively flashing his lights at me when I moved to the middle of the track to indicate I didn't intend to let him past me. I then pulled around a 3-4s gap in 1 lap.
I was not the only person who got squeezed by this driver, and I can't really understand why they would behave like this. On the whole, all the other Porsche drivers were absolutely fine, and I think generally they also realise there's no prizes for racing against uncomparable cars on a test day.
So...am I being unreasonable to expect that generally, on a test day, drivers of different championships should be polite and courteous to each other and let faster cars through? I did a test at Snetterton last week where there were a number of Clio Cup cars. Over a lap, there's around a 0.5s deficit in their favour, and I wouldn't think of trying to engage in any kind of race with them. They're there to do their testing, I'm there to do mine.
I appreciate that it can be annoying if there are hundreds of faster cars, but in this instance Caterhams were in the minority. In fact, there were only 2 cars (myself and one other) that they would have had to have lifted for.
So...should I have gone and confronted the two drivers in question (something which I generally try to avoid as what happens on track generally should stay there in my opinion), or should I send someone an email to suggest they have a word? Or should I just leave it and let them get on with it? My only concern is that it could end up with an accident. Could I have done anything different? If there had been less cars on track, I'd have backed off a lot, however, it was next to impossible to get a clear lap.
Discuss :P
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 30th August 20:46
I'd have possibly gone and spoken with whoever was running the test day - no point confronting them as they don't sound like the type of person that would take kindly to being questioned.
I am of the same opinion as you regarding test day etiquette - everyone is there for different reasons. no point holding up someone who is clearly quicker over a full lap.
Hopefully you wont encounter these idiots again
I am of the same opinion as you regarding test day etiquette - everyone is there for different reasons. no point holding up someone who is clearly quicker over a full lap.
Hopefully you wont encounter these idiots again
CharlesElliott said:
Ultimately you have to pick your spot and sometimes that means dropping back and finding a gap.
[Fellow Caterham racer....]
Exactly. I did do that in the end, although the session got 'flagged after someone tried to jump the barrier![Fellow Caterham racer....]
Sounds like I'm not being too unreasonable though.....live and learn I guess!
You did exactly the right thing by backing off, and trying later.
In racing, ignore three blue flags and then it's a black and white diagonal with an invitation to the CofC's post-race cocktail party to follow. But on a flag day, the marshals may not have radio comms, so the organsier may not be as aware as the CofC will be.
Most organisers are hot on track behaviour. They must be to keep going back there.
I once went with a Caterham owning friend, who let me go out first, in a gaggle behind the pace car. I span, three times in three 'sighting' laps, all at different corners! The organiser 'had a word' and accepted my excuse, that it was my first time in a Caterham, but said that one more spin and I was off the circuit! I wasn't.
JOhn
In racing, ignore three blue flags and then it's a black and white diagonal with an invitation to the CofC's post-race cocktail party to follow. But on a flag day, the marshals may not have radio comms, so the organsier may not be as aware as the CofC will be.
Most organisers are hot on track behaviour. They must be to keep going back there.
I once went with a Caterham owning friend, who let me go out first, in a gaggle behind the pace car. I span, three times in three 'sighting' laps, all at different corners! The organiser 'had a word' and accepted my excuse, that it was my first time in a Caterham, but said that one more spin and I was off the circuit! I wasn't.
JOhn
.......... from the other side of the fence!!! I was there today, coaching a 16 year old novice driver in a Mighty Mini, from my point of view, the only inconsiderate, and arrogant drivers were those in Caterhams, .. so what is good for the goose, is good for the gander!! Just to add weight to my side of the story, I spend much of my time coaching on trackdays, and when we indicate, move to one side, and ease off the power to allow a Caterham through, one in every twenty may have the manners to say thank you!! Something for you to discuss with your Caterham pals!!!
So, let me swap Porsche for Caterham, and that's also my rant. I have shared many test days with Caterhams and some of them look in their mirrors, some of them don't. I very nearly speared some buttmunch Caterham at Zandvoort on our test day this year because over a whole 3 laps he didn't look in his mirror once.
These people aren't Porsches, or Caterhams, or any other car. They are people. Go and talk to them and put them right. Don't rant on a message board and try to get a rise out of a certain series. We are all racers, and we all share these irritations from time to time. Get it dealt with.
That is all.
These people aren't Porsches, or Caterhams, or any other car. They are people. Go and talk to them and put them right. Don't rant on a message board and try to get a rise out of a certain series. We are all racers, and we all share these irritations from time to time. Get it dealt with.
That is all.
There has to be a bit of give and take on a test day. Most people's aim is to run consistent lap or sector times so that they can judge the effects of changes they are making in setup. If you are constantly having to jump out of the way of a "quicker" caterham it renders your lap times meaningless and wastes all the money you have handed over to MSV for the test day, not to mention the cost of tyres brakes etc etc etc...testing is expensive!
Caterhams achieve their lap times in a different way to most cars out there, because they are so light. It is very frustrating to have your lap time wrecked when a Caterham dives down the inside of you under braking for the last corner. When it happens every lap its no wonder people get cross with them!
Find yourself some space to do your own thing and don't always expect everyone to get out of your way!!
Caterhams achieve their lap times in a different way to most cars out there, because they are so light. It is very frustrating to have your lap time wrecked when a Caterham dives down the inside of you under braking for the last corner. When it happens every lap its no wonder people get cross with them!
Find yourself some space to do your own thing and don't always expect everyone to get out of your way!!
Never been on a test day but have done track days, I've always moved aside when someone who is obviously faster (easy to make out, if they caught up to you they are faster) comes along. Its basic manners and safer for both parties as no-one is going to make a lunge/not see a lunge coming.
I'd consider anyone not driving to these standards to be a bit of a t
t to be honest, no matter what they are driving.
As for hand signals, waving your arm is a sign of frustration, waving the finger or fist is a sign of aggression and should not be tolerated. Anyone who cannot adhere to these basic rules of track etiquette should be reported, brought into the pits for a talking to by the clerk of the course, allowed back out and if the behaviour continues as before they should be black flagged and told to go home for everyones safety (including their own)
I'd consider anyone not driving to these standards to be a bit of a t
t to be honest, no matter what they are driving.As for hand signals, waving your arm is a sign of frustration, waving the finger or fist is a sign of aggression and should not be tolerated. Anyone who cannot adhere to these basic rules of track etiquette should be reported, brought into the pits for a talking to by the clerk of the course, allowed back out and if the behaviour continues as before they should be black flagged and told to go home for everyones safety (including their own)
Doesn't surprise me at all, sadly. In those instances I'd back off or pit and try again.
I'd also tell the officials at the test if it was one driver in particular.
Sadly whether someone blocks you deliberately or not, all test days are the same. Whenever I'm in the G55 trying to get a free lap in nearly inpossible.
I completely sympathise though. People are idiots.
I'm more than happy to move out of the way when someone is on a flyer or if I'm holding someone up in a faster car. I think its called 'having confidence in your own ability'.
I'd also tell the officials at the test if it was one driver in particular.
Sadly whether someone blocks you deliberately or not, all test days are the same. Whenever I'm in the G55 trying to get a free lap in nearly inpossible.
I completely sympathise though. People are idiots.
I'm more than happy to move out of the way when someone is on a flyer or if I'm holding someone up in a faster car. I think its called 'having confidence in your own ability'.
Generally I only do test days in the closed season, as my licence is a Non-race National B and not deemed acceptable for test days during the race season. Anyway, being both a relative novice and in an older, slower car, I often find myself in a position where quicker cars want to pass. I do so because a) it's not qualifying and b) I don't want people to think what's that tit in the old 3 series up too? Unfortunately though, I have found myself being blocked lap after lap, by someone doggedly refusing to let me past. My own thoughts are that it is down to the organisers to stop this happening. I attended a track day at Brands last year, where a guy in a quick VW Golf, repeatedly flashed his lights at anyone who dared to get in his way. It was pretty intimidating for novice drivers to have this guy hassling to pass.
Common sense dictates that you should let quicker cars pass. Unfortunately common sense is less and less common nowadays.
Common sense dictates that you should let quicker cars pass. Unfortunately common sense is less and less common nowadays.
Interesting to read people's opinions.
Just to say, I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned the type of car in my original post. It wasn't actually my intention to single any championship out in particular.
I can also understand people's frustrations on occasion at feeling their track time is ruined if they have to give way to faster cars all the time, but remember that the inverse is true. Having to pass slower cars is equally as damaging to consistent laps for the faster one.
Perhaps for some there is a general ill feeling towards Caterhams? I can somewhat understand that there are a lot of novices around from the Academy, and spotting the difference between those in less powerful cars and others in Supersports and R300s is tough to the untrained eye. Remember that we all started somewhere though, so you have to cut novices a bit of slack! Obviously if any of them try to run you off the track, this falls in to the same category as those I encountered yesterday. I also think there's a difference between not looking in your mirrors and being unaware whats going on around you (a novice mistake) and being aware of another car behind and actively engaging, racing, blocking and squeezing a car from another championship on a test day (unforgivable).
I guess the main learning outcome is to just back off asap and try and find some space elsewhere.
Just to say, I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned the type of car in my original post. It wasn't actually my intention to single any championship out in particular.
I can also understand people's frustrations on occasion at feeling their track time is ruined if they have to give way to faster cars all the time, but remember that the inverse is true. Having to pass slower cars is equally as damaging to consistent laps for the faster one.
Perhaps for some there is a general ill feeling towards Caterhams? I can somewhat understand that there are a lot of novices around from the Academy, and spotting the difference between those in less powerful cars and others in Supersports and R300s is tough to the untrained eye. Remember that we all started somewhere though, so you have to cut novices a bit of slack! Obviously if any of them try to run you off the track, this falls in to the same category as those I encountered yesterday. I also think there's a difference between not looking in your mirrors and being unaware whats going on around you (a novice mistake) and being aware of another car behind and actively engaging, racing, blocking and squeezing a car from another championship on a test day (unforgivable).
I guess the main learning outcome is to just back off asap and try and find some space elsewhere.
Edited by RacerMike on Saturday 31st August 17:57
This is a comment aimed at those comparing test days with their experience on track days. The two things are totally different...chalk and cheese. On a test day passing is NOT "by consent". You are likely to be passed on either side, under braking and/or mid corner and whether you wave someone by or not. Additionally, test days are not a bit of fun (although obviously if you don't enjoy them, maybe you should find another hobby!). They are a serious way of improving your lap times so that you will do better on race day! To that end, people are conducting very specific tests with a very limited number of laps to achieve what they need to. In other words interfering with someone's laps is much more serious on a test day than on a track day, whether by intentionally blocking them or by overtaking in a way that forces them off line or to brake early or lift etc. On a track day its annoying...on a test day you may be causing someone to waste hundreds of pounds.
To give a specific example: Someone is trying to set a bench mark lap time on an unused set of slicks. Just as they are about to start the flying lap someone passes them into the final corner causing them to lift at the crucial moment. The flying lap becomes meaningless and the brand new set of slicks (c.£1000) is wasted. This has happened. The car doing the overtaking was a Caterham and to add insult to injury it dived into the pits straight after the final corner.
To give a specific example: Someone is trying to set a bench mark lap time on an unused set of slicks. Just as they are about to start the flying lap someone passes them into the final corner causing them to lift at the crucial moment. The flying lap becomes meaningless and the brand new set of slicks (c.£1000) is wasted. This has happened. The car doing the overtaking was a Caterham and to add insult to injury it dived into the pits straight after the final corner.
That's motorsport and test days, the good, the bad, the well meaning but clueless and the pig headed and mullering it round, all mixed in together in cars with hugely varying abilities, even around a given lap!
All you can do in that situation is take comfort in the fact that the guy in front is almost certainly driving to his ego but thanks perhaps, to sticky tyres, more power OR a lighter smaller car is ultimately being flattered! In any event, try to have a laugh about his personal battle, drop back and go again.... You can do no more!
All you can do in that situation is take comfort in the fact that the guy in front is almost certainly driving to his ego but thanks perhaps, to sticky tyres, more power OR a lighter smaller car is ultimately being flattered! In any event, try to have a laugh about his personal battle, drop back and go again.... You can do no more!
TBH the only car and place where I have been properly peed off is testing at Silverstone with the Radicals sharing the track. Impossible to get clear laps in with those guys out there as they just carve down in the corners and its either run em over or give up 2 or 3 apexes per lap. Hugely frustrating.
Another view point on this boxster v caterham argument. The organisers need to re-think how they mixed the groups by the sound of it for that one
Another view point on this boxster v caterham argument. The organisers need to re-think how they mixed the groups by the sound of it for that one
Very interesting to hear people's different points of view. Personally I will always move out of someone else's way on a trackday, test day or qualifying if they are faster than me. It seems all too often forgotten that if a car appears in the mirrors that wasnt there before, it is faster than you are.
I find interesting though that people are forgetting the main point about all this which should be safety. I dont expect to be squeezed on a test day! If you are pushed wide in a race you expect it and are driving as such. On a test day you may be commited under braking, going for a quick lap, and frankly racing someone you on a test day which has limited safety support (i.e. marshalls, recovery) is unacceptable.
As has been said though theses problems are with the people driving the cars, not the marque or championship. You would have been well within your rights to report said driver to the organisers not so much for ignoing blues, but for his abusive conduct. Why does no one have any consideration for toher anymore? You all paid the same to be there.
I find interesting though that people are forgetting the main point about all this which should be safety. I dont expect to be squeezed on a test day! If you are pushed wide in a race you expect it and are driving as such. On a test day you may be commited under braking, going for a quick lap, and frankly racing someone you on a test day which has limited safety support (i.e. marshalls, recovery) is unacceptable.
As has been said though theses problems are with the people driving the cars, not the marque or championship. You would have been well within your rights to report said driver to the organisers not so much for ignoing blues, but for his abusive conduct. Why does no one have any consideration for toher anymore? You all paid the same to be there.
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