Does it have to be new, or are older cars more fun?
Discussion
Watching the F40 vs F50 vid by Chris, it got me thinking. How many people miss out on some seriously good cars just because they are now a 'bit old'?
Or are we just deluding ourselves into thinking older cars are more fun?
Personally I'm not against modern cars with their 58 speed button press gearboxes and their 8 turbocharged motors and 4000 computers controlling all aspects of the car. But I admit, I have very limited experience in some of the newer or high performance vehicles like this.
Should I be making an effort to sample them and maybe own something "new". Or is a more simple, more raw approach of an older car still the superior driving machine?
I guess you could view this on many levels:
Such as, is a Pug 205 GTI still a better drivers cars than a new Fiesta ST or Clio Sport?
Is a GT86, despite it's claim of back to basics really a better drivers car than say a Ferrari Mondial? Similar money will buy you either.
Is a new Focus ST really a more fun car than an Escort Cosworth?
Is the mighty GT-R with it's supercar slaying ability really going to make you smile more than hoofing about in 964/993 Porsche Turbo?
Or are we just deluding ourselves into thinking older cars are more fun?
Personally I'm not against modern cars with their 58 speed button press gearboxes and their 8 turbocharged motors and 4000 computers controlling all aspects of the car. But I admit, I have very limited experience in some of the newer or high performance vehicles like this.
Should I be making an effort to sample them and maybe own something "new". Or is a more simple, more raw approach of an older car still the superior driving machine?
I guess you could view this on many levels:
Such as, is a Pug 205 GTI still a better drivers cars than a new Fiesta ST or Clio Sport?
Is a GT86, despite it's claim of back to basics really a better drivers car than say a Ferrari Mondial? Similar money will buy you either.
Is a new Focus ST really a more fun car than an Escort Cosworth?
Is the mighty GT-R with it's supercar slaying ability really going to make you smile more than hoofing about in 964/993 Porsche Turbo?
As usual it comes down to what the driver wants.
Personally I want to feel like an integral part of the car, to feel it come alive beneath you and telegraph exactly what's going on. So for me, the 205GTI is a better car than a new Fiesta ST, a Noble M600 is a better supercar than a GTR, and I'd take a Zonda over a Huayra (preferring less electronic trickery and a manual box).
Someone else might say the opposite - that going as absolutely fast as possible is best. In which case they'd take the new GT3 over a 997 GT3 4.0, a GTR over a Noble, and regard a Caterham as a totally ridiculous dinosaur.
Personally I want to feel like an integral part of the car, to feel it come alive beneath you and telegraph exactly what's going on. So for me, the 205GTI is a better car than a new Fiesta ST, a Noble M600 is a better supercar than a GTR, and I'd take a Zonda over a Huayra (preferring less electronic trickery and a manual box).
Someone else might say the opposite - that going as absolutely fast as possible is best. In which case they'd take the new GT3 over a 997 GT3 4.0, a GTR over a Noble, and regard a Caterham as a totally ridiculous dinosaur.
300bhp/ton said:
Watching the F40 vs F50 vid by Chris, it got me thinking. How many people miss out on some seriously good cars just because they are now a 'bit old'?
Depends on your definition of good.New cars will keep pace the sports cars of old but with all the added modern creature comforts.
There's no doubting that the driving experience of the older cars is more pure.
Krikkit said:
As usual it comes down to what the driver wants.
Not everyone can be bothered with the hassle of an 'old' car.I don't think there's any great mystery about it really. Older cars tend to provide a more visceral experience.
Hydraulic or unassisted steering, fewer or no driver aids, lighter weight due to more lenient crash regulations, skinnier tyres, less sound deadening and silencing...
It would be a very brave individual who went out to buy a brand new Toyota, warrantied up to the eyeballs, and came back with a Ferrari Mondial, but I can't argue with the logic.
Hydraulic or unassisted steering, fewer or no driver aids, lighter weight due to more lenient crash regulations, skinnier tyres, less sound deadening and silencing...
It would be a very brave individual who went out to buy a brand new Toyota, warrantied up to the eyeballs, and came back with a Ferrari Mondial, but I can't argue with the logic.
kambites said:
Modern cars are, almost without exception, vastly better than old ones at getting you from A to B with the minimum of hassle.
Unfortunately, that's about all they're better at, in my opinion. From a "fun" standpoint, things have been going continuously downhill since the 60s, IMO.
Sometimes it's the hassle that is the fun Unfortunately, that's about all they're better at, in my opinion. From a "fun" standpoint, things have been going continuously downhill since the 60s, IMO.
RizzoTheRat said:
Sometimes it's the hassle that is the fun
Exactly; define "fun". The definitions vary from person to person. I find it fun driving basic, light, nimble, accelerative cars. I don't find it fun worrying about whether it's going to start or not or breakdown mid-drive. I don't have the time or derive much fun from working on cars myself (mainly due to incompetence 
).So for me, older cars are not necessarily more fun. Any car which is light, small, nimble, reliable, accelerative is likely to be fun for me whether it's new or old.
My biggest complaints about a lot of new cars are overly light controls with no feeling and the sound levels which for me have a big impact on the FUN scale.
I am not a fan of new cars that have ridiculously light steering, a accelerator that gives you 75% throttle with only 33% pedal movement, a clutch that feels like on/off switch and warning bells/buzzers/dongs to tell me the f
king obvious eg cars with dongs/beeps when reversing - it's not a HGV!
That and cars that have half a tonne of sound deadening and an engine that makes you check the rev counter just to ensure the thing is still running.
I want heavier steering, brakes I can apply gradually with moderation, an accelerator that gives me full throttle when the pedal is mashed into the carpet, a engine that roars at high revs and burbles on tick over!!!
I am not a fan of new cars that have ridiculously light steering, a accelerator that gives you 75% throttle with only 33% pedal movement, a clutch that feels like on/off switch and warning bells/buzzers/dongs to tell me the f
king obvious eg cars with dongs/beeps when reversing - it's not a HGV!That and cars that have half a tonne of sound deadening and an engine that makes you check the rev counter just to ensure the thing is still running.
I want heavier steering, brakes I can apply gradually with moderation, an accelerator that gives me full throttle when the pedal is mashed into the carpet, a engine that roars at high revs and burbles on tick over!!!
I sold a nearly new 135i m-sport and bought a 15 year old car to replace it.
Most new cars take the driver too far away from what I consider to be the joys of driving.
I like changing gear.
I like the feel of chassis movement or wheel slip if I make it happen.
I don't want computers to compensate for it.
I'm sure modern cars are faster on tracks.
But I don't want to win races, I want to enjoy the drive.
Most new cars take the driver too far away from what I consider to be the joys of driving.
I like changing gear.
I like the feel of chassis movement or wheel slip if I make it happen.
I don't want computers to compensate for it.
I'm sure modern cars are faster on tracks.
But I don't want to win races, I want to enjoy the drive.
It depends on priorities. Lots of mechanical aspects of cars have come on massively in the last decade or so, including ones that improve the driving experience (for example: tyres, damping and chassis stiffness). However, driver involvement and feedback in cars has been getting less and less because that's what most people want, even buyers of sports cars (most of whom aren't interested in driving involvement as we know it).
For me the holy grail is a car with the aforementioned modern chassis stiffness, damping and tyre technology, but that also drives really well; for example the Lotus Exige S (V6) or Evora S. Some cars get very close indeed, for example some of the BMW range. For those cars I'd rather drive the latest version. For others though (Porsches, possibly Ferraris if I had driven one etc), I'd rather be in the older car. People who I know and trust have driven old and new examples of supercars such as the Enzo and F40 and prefer the older car, and I'm sure I would too.
For me the holy grail is a car with the aforementioned modern chassis stiffness, damping and tyre technology, but that also drives really well; for example the Lotus Exige S (V6) or Evora S. Some cars get very close indeed, for example some of the BMW range. For those cars I'd rather drive the latest version. For others though (Porsches, possibly Ferraris if I had driven one etc), I'd rather be in the older car. People who I know and trust have driven old and new examples of supercars such as the Enzo and F40 and prefer the older car, and I'm sure I would too.
kambites said:
I think modern tyres are one of the bigger problems with modern cars. They just have too much grip to be "fun" on the road, IMO.
Is that not more a function of the width of wheels fitted to cars? Modern tyre tech but relatively narrow wheels should still be slidey fun.ewenm said:
kambites said:
I think modern tyres are one of the bigger problems with modern cars. They just have too much grip to be "fun" on the road, IMO.
Is that not more a function of the width of wheels fitted to cars? Modern tyre tech but relatively narrow wheels should still be slidey fun.98 306 D-Turbo vs 2009 Suzuki swift 1.3
both just over 90bhp and weigh almost the same
the 306 was hoot, running into corners fast hard on the brakes, back end waggling and then power eased on till I could go full power with wonderful steering communication, the feel of the car coming up through my butt and the surprise from the Focus ST that left me dead on the straights finding my 306 had caught up in the twistys
The swift, does not like to be hustled at all, feels like its all over the place on anything other than billiard smooth roads, dead steering, leaves me totally cold.
both just over 90bhp and weigh almost the same
the 306 was hoot, running into corners fast hard on the brakes, back end waggling and then power eased on till I could go full power with wonderful steering communication, the feel of the car coming up through my butt and the surprise from the Focus ST that left me dead on the straights finding my 306 had caught up in the twistys
The swift, does not like to be hustled at all, feels like its all over the place on anything other than billiard smooth roads, dead steering, leaves me totally cold.
I much prefer older cars. With a passion I hate all the "toys" and gadgets on most modern cars.
Seats with electric motors, little mechanical arms that hand you the seatbelt, auto-windscreens, auto-wipers, electric closing tailgates, auto-dimming mirrors, built-in satnav, etc.
It's all extra weight, extra complication, extra expense and a load of ste. I don't want ANY of it.
Seats with electric motors, little mechanical arms that hand you the seatbelt, auto-windscreens, auto-wipers, electric closing tailgates, auto-dimming mirrors, built-in satnav, etc.
It's all extra weight, extra complication, extra expense and a load of s
te. I don't want ANY of it.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff