older cars designed right, new cars fixed with electronics
Discussion
older cars chassis designed right, new cars fixed with electronics
I'm of the opinion that a lot of the new cars sub 15 grand new do not have their chassis designed by anyone with a single love of driving gene in their entire body.
Its up to the development engineers to fix them with electronics and expensive suspension parts.
older cars pre 1999 had to be designed right as there was not much the development engineers could do to fix a pup.
I'm of the opinion that a lot of the new cars sub 15 grand new do not have their chassis designed by anyone with a single love of driving gene in their entire body.
Its up to the development engineers to fix them with electronics and expensive suspension parts.
older cars pre 1999 had to be designed right as there was not much the development engineers could do to fix a pup.
in theory the electronics on by default should allow the chassis to be setup more extreme than they would have before, in the knowledge that it will only play when the driver wants to switch the stability controls off. It doesn't always work that way, though I think some of the current hot hatches are a lot more prone to lift off oversteer with the electronics off than previously would have been released to the public.
I think on the 'mainstream' joe car market, the car that made the big leap forward, chassis and handling wise (and many would say styling wise) was the ford focus in 1998. Leagues ahead on the handling compared to any other mainstream hatch at the time. I had a 1998 zetec model with no driver aids tc etc, and it was a belting car. The number of 'sports' cars you could just drive round the outside of on road abouts etc was amazing, all on skinny 185 tyres.
So i think many other manufacturers bought focuses and copied them, (although some day the Megane had the trick suspension links in place before focus) and then the electronics have come since. But the basic chassis developments learned from the focus remain.
So i think many other manufacturers bought focuses and copied them, (although some day the Megane had the trick suspension links in place before focus) and then the electronics have come since. But the basic chassis developments learned from the focus remain.
Edited by s3fella on Thursday 5th September 17:19
RobM77 said:
I completely disagree. Can you name a single modern car that doesn't handle well for the average driver's abilities (or the intended market for the car) and relies on electronics? I certainly can't.
True. A base Fiesta (or even a Sandero) will punt the average driver down a B-road in (relatively) swift safety without any electrical assistance. Garlick said:
RobM77 said:
I completely disagree. Can you name a single modern car that doesn't handle well for the average driver's abilities (or the intended market for the car) and relies on electronics? I certainly can't.
True. A base Fiesta (or even a Sandero) will punt the average driver down a B-road in (relatively) swift safety without any electrical assistance. Well, Ford seem to get the engineering right, then add systems, whereas Vauxhall (I'm talking Corsa, Astra, not Aussie metal) seem to add power, then bodge it with software.
Either way, you only need to look at what happened this morning on the Sheppey bridge to see what the result is of modern "nanny" systems. 130 vehicles crashed at speed in fog, so far no fatalities, and just 6 major injuries. A woman on the TV news said words to the effect of "I hit the brakes, it juddered and I steered away" (juddering being the ABS). 20 years ago both she and her child would have been a mess. It looks awful, but the ABS, brake assist, stability control etc fitted to those cars, lorries and so on swung the chances in favour of survival by a huge amount. Clearly vehicle design has a huge amount to add there, but that's not the issue.
Did they make people think they were invulnerable? Maybe, but I suspect the sound insulation and cocooning did that more than anything. Does it spoil our fun on higher end cars? Possibly. But tonight there are 100 families not visiting hospitals, but sat at home filling in insurance forms instead.
Either way, you only need to look at what happened this morning on the Sheppey bridge to see what the result is of modern "nanny" systems. 130 vehicles crashed at speed in fog, so far no fatalities, and just 6 major injuries. A woman on the TV news said words to the effect of "I hit the brakes, it juddered and I steered away" (juddering being the ABS). 20 years ago both she and her child would have been a mess. It looks awful, but the ABS, brake assist, stability control etc fitted to those cars, lorries and so on swung the chances in favour of survival by a huge amount. Clearly vehicle design has a huge amount to add there, but that's not the issue.
Did they make people think they were invulnerable? Maybe, but I suspect the sound insulation and cocooning did that more than anything. Does it spoil our fun on higher end cars? Possibly. But tonight there are 100 families not visiting hospitals, but sat at home filling in insurance forms instead.
Rumple said:
Garlick said:
RobM77 said:
I completely disagree. Can you name a single modern car that doesn't handle well for the average driver's abilities (or the intended market for the car) and relies on electronics? I certainly can't.
True. A base Fiesta (or even a Sandero) will punt the average driver down a B-road in (relatively) swift safety without any electrical assistance. 
On a side note..
I was amazed at how little provocation is needed to get a new fiesta sideways in the wet.
slight understeer at 30mph, lift off and bang! very sideways!.
Great fun, but can't help thinking they're a littletoo hot for little old ladies?
ETA- Good post ZAD, some interesting points there.
Edited by Buff Mchugelarge on Thursday 5th September 17:59
When I was looking to replace the Tuscan with a Z4MR I asked on the owners forums what the handling was like with the electronics turned off as I had been used to a high powered car with no aids.
Their answer was a lot of you tube clips and photos of cars loosing it when the electrics were turned off.
Now I understand that those drivers could have just been tits but it did make me think.
Their answer was a lot of you tube clips and photos of cars loosing it when the electrics were turned off.
Now I understand that those drivers could have just been tits but it did make me think.
Daston said:
When I was looking to replace the Tuscan with a Z4MR I asked on the owners forums what the handling was like with the electronics turned off as I had been used to a high powered car with no aids.
Their answer was a lot of you tube clips and photos of cars loosing it when the electrics were turned off.
Now I understand that those drivers could have just been tits but it did make me think.
The Z4MR is a car that handles very well. Just like a TVR, with teh electroincs turned off and a lead right foot, it will unstick its rear end. Their answer was a lot of you tube clips and photos of cars loosing it when the electrics were turned off.
Now I understand that those drivers could have just been tits but it did make me think.
Car suspension design hasn't exactly moved on leaps an bounds over older cars that we know and love. The Ford Focus introduced the working man to a decent independent rear suspension setup which is why so many people (Including myself) praise it's handling.
Macpherson struts and torsion beam rear suspension are far from the pinnacle of decent suspension design, and therefore decent handling cars. Most average cars are still being launched out of the factories with them though
My ancient Honda has a wonderful suspension design, but it gets written off these days as "Too heavy and complicated". I've outpaced a number of modern cars with fatter and wider tyres around the bends, because if your suspension is not race car it's just not worth having!
- Image A: Proper Suspension!
Macpherson struts and torsion beam rear suspension are far from the pinnacle of decent suspension design, and therefore decent handling cars. Most average cars are still being launched out of the factories with them though
My ancient Honda has a wonderful suspension design, but it gets written off these days as "Too heavy and complicated". I've outpaced a number of modern cars with fatter and wider tyres around the bends, because if your suspension is not race car it's just not worth having!
- Image A: Proper Suspension!
RobM77 said:
Suspension hasn't moved on in terms of the basic designs available, but damper technology and the design of the suspension geo have. Two cars 30 years apart with the same basic susp. design can feel very very different.
Very true, tyres are a whole lot better as well. Suspension Geometry has indeed improved but certainly at the expense of tyre life, though as said modern tyres are able to withstand this better. I was behind a BMW x5 the other day and the camber angle and toe of the rear wheels was very extreme, I wouldn't like to replace tyres on that.I find tyre life on older cars to be much longer though
RobM77 said:
I completely disagree. Can you name a single modern car that doesn't handle well for the average driver's abilities (or the intended market for the car) and relies on electronics? I certainly can't.
Audi TT? Smart car? going off the road backwards on high speed corners or tipping on lane changes! reprogram and tiny spoiler - fixed, I had a Pug 306gti-6 back in the day that had passive rear steering and a Honda accord type R both of which handled beautifully, no electronics required, I agree that tech has changed with tyre technology much improved (along with increase in diameters) but ultimately its a cheap way of reducing development costs....Gary
jaf01uk said:
RobM77 said:
I completely disagree. Can you name a single modern car that doesn't handle well for the average driver's abilities (or the intended market for the car) and relies on electronics? I certainly can't.
Audi TT? Smart car? going off the road backwards on high speed corners or tipping on lane changes! reprogram and tiny spoiler - fixed, I had a Pug 306gti-6 back in the day that had passive rear steering and a Honda accord type R both of which handled beautifully, no electronics required, I agree that tech has changed with tyre technology much improved (along with increase in diameters) but ultimately its a cheap way of reducing development costs....Gary
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