The amazing stuff built by Ferdinand Porsche before Porsche
Discussion
in 2013, with all of the hoopla about the 911 50th, it is interesting to look back at what went before. Before the 356. Before the first Porsche in 1948. I was going through some pics I have taken in various places, and realized that Austro-Daimler, Steyr,Mercedes-Benz, Auto Union, VW and a few I have doubtless missed all have connections to the irascible but brilliant Ferdinand Porsche. I have read a fair bit about the elder man, and it seems fair to say he was a sort of automotive equivalent to Frank Llloyd Wright...a genius, imperious,hands-on, creative, but definitely no fun to be with. He managed to alienate most of his bosses in his life. He acted as a chauffeur for Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand in 1906 using a Lohner, was highly regarded by Hitler,had a Jewish partner in 1931, but was a favourite on the Nazis. Yet, he never wore a uniform or made apolitical statement. Was admired by and met Henry Ford, and was invited by Stalin to become the Czar (not the right word here) of the Russian auto industry in 1932,which he turned down.
Yet, he rose to fame very early, starting to design the first hybrid, the Lohner-Porsche , in 1898 when he was 22.. Although too heavy to use as a car, about 300 buses and commercial vehicles were built and operated successfully.
He had two passions...sports cars and tractors, oddly. In WW.1 he designed land-trains which were used as artillery haulers for Austro-Daimler and later a variety of cars.
He joined Mercedes and was immediately tasked with building a GP car. Mercedes had been failing in competition but his 1924 Mercedes was immensely successful, winning the 1924 Targa Florio. Ferdinand co-drove one of the Targa Florio entrants with Alfred Neubauer who later became the legendary Mercedes Silver Arrows manager.
Porsche and Neubahr:
Then came one of his most brilliant designs..the Supercharged S class Mercedes-Benz. The S, SSK and SSKL were superb competition vehicles, most notably driven by Rudolf Caracciola and much sportier than the bloated 500K and 540K that followed. However, the merger of Daimler and Benz in 1926 led to culture clashes, and Porsche fell out with management over design philosophy and found himself unemployed in 1929. There are a few of the Porsche-dsigned cars in museums that I photographed here and there..
Mercedes Museum
Schlumpf in Mulhouse
This was at the old Nurburgring Museum in 2006
More to come
Yet, he rose to fame very early, starting to design the first hybrid, the Lohner-Porsche , in 1898 when he was 22.. Although too heavy to use as a car, about 300 buses and commercial vehicles were built and operated successfully.
He had two passions...sports cars and tractors, oddly. In WW.1 he designed land-trains which were used as artillery haulers for Austro-Daimler and later a variety of cars.
He joined Mercedes and was immediately tasked with building a GP car. Mercedes had been failing in competition but his 1924 Mercedes was immensely successful, winning the 1924 Targa Florio. Ferdinand co-drove one of the Targa Florio entrants with Alfred Neubauer who later became the legendary Mercedes Silver Arrows manager.
Porsche and Neubahr:
Then came one of his most brilliant designs..the Supercharged S class Mercedes-Benz. The S, SSK and SSKL were superb competition vehicles, most notably driven by Rudolf Caracciola and much sportier than the bloated 500K and 540K that followed. However, the merger of Daimler and Benz in 1926 led to culture clashes, and Porsche fell out with management over design philosophy and found himself unemployed in 1929. There are a few of the Porsche-dsigned cars in museums that I photographed here and there..
Mercedes Museum
Schlumpf in Mulhouse
This was at the old Nurburgring Museum in 2006
More to come
Edited by RDMcG on Friday 6th September 00:30
Edited by RDMcG on Friday 6th September 00:34
Edited by RDMcG on Friday 6th September 00:40
By the early thirties Porsche was designing cars independently, doing a lot of engineering work for Auto Union.such as this Wanderer, the last to have a Porshce -designed engine. I photographed it in the Audi Museum
Porsche and Hans Stuck ( Father of H-J Stuck) knew each other and Stuck arranged a meeting in 1934 with a certain A Hitler. There is much dispute about how it was arranged, but the upshot was that Porsche was given the funds to develop a GP car to further German prestige and provide additional German racing capability to Mercedes. Thus started the mid-engined Auto Union which was a very successful car. The cars below are in the Audi Museum. The twin-wheeled car was rediscovered in RIga a few years ago, a V16 that had been driven by Hans Stuck. They look a lot smaller than in photographs, but I cannot imagine driving a 500hp car with no seatbelts up the Grossglockner at speed.
Porsche with Hans Stuck in 1934:
Two original cars in the Audi museum, including the Riga V16 car:
At the same time Porsche got the design contract for the VW and also the contract to build the plant at Wolfsburg. There were some competing designs but by all accounts Hitler was personally invested in the VW and discouraged other manuacturers from competing. Of course, as it turned, out the People's car never reached the people, and only about 700 Beetles were built by 1945. On the other hand, 70,000 military Kubelwagens and amphibious Schwimmwagens were built, and the Schwimmagen remains the largest production number of any amphibious vehicle in history. In 1938, Porsche was given the Nazi equivalent of the Nobel prize for science.
This NSU was infouential:
Porsche and Hans Stuck ( Father of H-J Stuck) knew each other and Stuck arranged a meeting in 1934 with a certain A Hitler. There is much dispute about how it was arranged, but the upshot was that Porsche was given the funds to develop a GP car to further German prestige and provide additional German racing capability to Mercedes. Thus started the mid-engined Auto Union which was a very successful car. The cars below are in the Audi Museum. The twin-wheeled car was rediscovered in RIga a few years ago, a V16 that had been driven by Hans Stuck. They look a lot smaller than in photographs, but I cannot imagine driving a 500hp car with no seatbelts up the Grossglockner at speed
.Porsche with Hans Stuck in 1934:
Two original cars in the Audi museum, including the Riga V16 car:
At the same time Porsche got the design contract for the VW and also the contract to build the plant at Wolfsburg. There were some competing designs but by all accounts Hitler was personally invested in the VW and discouraged other manuacturers from competing. Of course, as it turned, out the People's car never reached the people, and only about 700 Beetles were built by 1945. On the other hand, 70,000 military Kubelwagens and amphibious Schwimmwagens were built, and the Schwimmagen remains the largest production number of any amphibious vehicle in history. In 1938, Porsche was given the Nazi equivalent of the Nobel prize for science.
This NSU was infouential:
Just before the war, Porsche embarked on competition car, the VW type 64, which looks like a cross between a Beetle and a 356. Three were built for a Berlin-Rome race which was cancelled due to the war. Only one survived and is in private hands in Austria.. I photographed a mockup of the buck at the Porsche Museum. A second has been built from recovered parts and is in the Museum of Prototyps in Hamburg, I believe.
After a lot of reading I have concluded that Porsche was almost perfectly apolitical. He never wore a swastika or a uniform, never uttered an antisemitic statement, but at the same time was content to use slave labor during the war. He was happy to demonstrate vehicles to Hitler, and he and Ferry personally delivered a VW Beetle convertible to Goering's complex at Karinhall. It appears that he basically did not care much. After the war, Adolf Rosenberger, his erstwhile Jewish partner represented Porsche in the UK, and at the same time Himmler's former adjutant was put in charge of Porsche's US sales effort until he could not get a visa as a convicted war criminal. However Ferdinand Porsche did care very deeply about technology.
Goering inspecting his new Beetle at Karinhall with the Porsches:
Ferry driving Hitler and Porsche senior in a Beetle
Ferry demonstrating a Schwimmwagen to the military 1941
The kubel- and Schwimmwagens were briefly produced after the war for the German postal service, and many could be seen kicking around Greece and Bulgaria in the fifties. Interestingly the Schwimmwagen in the first production car ever to have a limited-slip differential.
The Schimmwagen was photographed earlier this year in Michigan
the Kubelwagen was photographed in the Porsche museum in Gmund
An extremely rare type 74 4WD Beetle used in Africa by Rommel...Porsche Museum Gmund and an original photo
Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was laterused for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.
He did design the bizarre Skoda Landschlepper..(None survive). It had huge steel wheels and was supposed to be able to tackle muddy ground, but was unsuccessful It is unclear how many were built.
In 1944 he fled to Gmund from Stuttgart, then badly bombed, with about half of his design staff where he was met by the allies after the war. Invited to France, ostensibly to consult , he and Ferry were immediately interned for suspected war crimes. Although he had some meetings with Renault, he did no meaningful design work and is not the father of the Renault 4CV. After about 20 months he was released and returned to Gmund. No charges were ever laid. His health was very poor and he had a stroke in 1950, dying a while later, and only saw the very beginning on Porsche as we know it.
This is the last known photograph of Ferdinand Porsche
After a lot of reading I have concluded that Porsche was almost perfectly apolitical. He never wore a swastika or a uniform, never uttered an antisemitic statement, but at the same time was content to use slave labor during the war. He was happy to demonstrate vehicles to Hitler, and he and Ferry personally delivered a VW Beetle convertible to Goering's complex at Karinhall. It appears that he basically did not care much. After the war, Adolf Rosenberger, his erstwhile Jewish partner represented Porsche in the UK, and at the same time Himmler's former adjutant was put in charge of Porsche's US sales effort until he could not get a visa as a convicted war criminal. However Ferdinand Porsche did care very deeply about technology.
Goering inspecting his new Beetle at Karinhall with the Porsches:
Ferry driving Hitler and Porsche senior in a Beetle
Ferry demonstrating a Schwimmwagen to the military 1941
The kubel- and Schwimmwagens were briefly produced after the war for the German postal service, and many could be seen kicking around Greece and Bulgaria in the fifties. Interestingly the Schwimmwagen in the first production car ever to have a limited-slip differential.
The Schimmwagen was photographed earlier this year in Michigan
the Kubelwagen was photographed in the Porsche museum in Gmund
An extremely rare type 74 4WD Beetle used in Africa by Rommel...Porsche Museum Gmund and an original photo
Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was laterused for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.
He did design the bizarre Skoda Landschlepper..(None survive). It had huge steel wheels and was supposed to be able to tackle muddy ground, but was unsuccessful It is unclear how many were built.
In 1944 he fled to Gmund from Stuttgart, then badly bombed, with about half of his design staff where he was met by the allies after the war. Invited to France, ostensibly to consult , he and Ferry were immediately interned for suspected war crimes. Although he had some meetings with Renault, he did no meaningful design work and is not the father of the Renault 4CV. After about 20 months he was released and returned to Gmund. No charges were ever laid. His health was very poor and he had a stroke in 1950, dying a while later, and only saw the very beginning on Porsche as we know it.
This is the last known photograph of Ferdinand Porsche
Edited by RDMcG on Friday 6th September 00:33
For this interested in Porsche history, there are a few essential books.
(1) Genesis of Genius - Karl Ludvigsen. Brillian account of Ferdinand Porsche until 1933 when it suddenly stops. The word Hitler never appears, so I ail fill the gap below.
(2) Origin of the species - Ludvigsen..picks up the development of the 356 in Gmund
(3) porsche - Excellent was expected. Ludvigsen, the definitive book on all Porsches to date and post war history.
(4) The Porsche book, (3 vols) - Barth...best model -by-midel statiistics including prototypes and comoetition cars.
The Third Reich era:
Volkswagens of the Wehrmacht -Hans-Georg Mayer-Stein
Volkkwagen: From Nazi People's car to Beetle: Blaine Taylor
Hitler's Racing teams
(1) Genesis of Genius - Karl Ludvigsen. Brillian account of Ferdinand Porsche until 1933 when it suddenly stops. The word Hitler never appears, so I ail fill the gap below.
(2) Origin of the species - Ludvigsen..picks up the development of the 356 in Gmund
(3) porsche - Excellent was expected. Ludvigsen, the definitive book on all Porsches to date and post war history.
(4) The Porsche book, (3 vols) - Barth...best model -by-midel statiistics including prototypes and comoetition cars.
The Third Reich era:
Volkswagens of the Wehrmacht -Hans-Georg Mayer-Stein
Volkkwagen: From Nazi People's car to Beetle: Blaine Taylor
Hitler's Racing teams
Very interesting, thank you for posting, some stuff on there I did not know about. The V16 Auto Union is my favourite Racing car of all time
This line however:
“Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was later used for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.”
Is not all entirely correct.
Both Porsche and Henschel submitted designs for a Heavy Tank that was to become the Tiger 1. Both used the same turrets and after testing, the Henschel Version was given the nod which is the Tiger 1 Tank that is well known today.
Porsche was so confident that he would receive the order as you have rightly pointed out, he was in with A Hitler, that he had 90 chassis' of his version of the Tiger Tank built. Failing to obtain the order left them with all these chassis' which he later received an order to turn them into a self-propelled Gun which was at first called the “Ferdinand” then later remained he “Elephant” due to the addition of a front MG pictured here.
They were not successful weighing in at 79 Tons. Porsches drive system was to use the Maybach Engine as a generator; drive to the rear sprockets was via 2 x electric motors.
Porsche did have a hand in the super heavyweight 188 ton Maus Tank again using electric drive, only 3 were ever completed and none saw action. There is only one left in the world in the Kubinka museum in Russia, its huge, the turret weights 55 ton, that same as a complete Tiger 1 Tank!
This line however:
“Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was later used for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.”
Is not all entirely correct.
Both Porsche and Henschel submitted designs for a Heavy Tank that was to become the Tiger 1. Both used the same turrets and after testing, the Henschel Version was given the nod which is the Tiger 1 Tank that is well known today.
Porsche was so confident that he would receive the order as you have rightly pointed out, he was in with A Hitler, that he had 90 chassis' of his version of the Tiger Tank built. Failing to obtain the order left them with all these chassis' which he later received an order to turn them into a self-propelled Gun which was at first called the “Ferdinand” then later remained he “Elephant” due to the addition of a front MG pictured here.
They were not successful weighing in at 79 Tons. Porsches drive system was to use the Maybach Engine as a generator; drive to the rear sprockets was via 2 x electric motors.
Porsche did have a hand in the super heavyweight 188 ton Maus Tank again using electric drive, only 3 were ever completed and none saw action. There is only one left in the world in the Kubinka museum in Russia, its huge, the turret weights 55 ton, that same as a complete Tiger 1 Tank!
Mark A S said:
Very interesting, thank you for posting, some stuff on there I did not know about. The V16 Auto Union is my favourite Racing car of all time
This line however:
“Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was later used for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.”
Is not all entirely correct.
Both Porsche and Henschel submitted designs for a Heavy Tank that was to become the Tiger 1. Both used the same turrets and after testing, the Henschel Version was given the nod which is the Tiger 1 Tank that is well known today.
Porsche was so confident that he would receive the order as you have rightly pointed out, he was in with A Hitler, that he had 90 chassis' of his version of the Tiger Tank built. Failing to obtain the order left them with all these chassis' which he later received an order to turn them into a self-propelled Gun which was at first called the “Ferdinand” then later remained he “Elephant” due to the addition of a front MG pictured here.
They were not successful weighing in at 79 Tons. Porsches drive system was to use the Maybach Engine as a generator; drive to the rear sprockets was via 2 x electric motors.
Porsche did have a hand in the super heavyweight 188 ton Maus Tank again using electric drive, only 3 were ever completed and none saw action. There is only one left in the world in the Kubinka museum in Russia, its huge, the turret weights 55 ton, that same as a complete Tiger 1 Tank!
You are quite correct and thanks for the additional photos. I believe that the Maus illustrated is made up of turret from one of the monsters and the chassis of the other...This line however:
“Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was later used for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.”
Is not all entirely correct.
Both Porsche and Henschel submitted designs for a Heavy Tank that was to become the Tiger 1. Both used the same turrets and after testing, the Henschel Version was given the nod which is the Tiger 1 Tank that is well known today.
Porsche was so confident that he would receive the order as you have rightly pointed out, he was in with A Hitler, that he had 90 chassis' of his version of the Tiger Tank built. Failing to obtain the order left them with all these chassis' which he later received an order to turn them into a self-propelled Gun which was at first called the “Ferdinand” then later remained he “Elephant” due to the addition of a front MG pictured here.
They were not successful weighing in at 79 Tons. Porsches drive system was to use the Maybach Engine as a generator; drive to the rear sprockets was via 2 x electric motors.
Porsche did have a hand in the super heavyweight 188 ton Maus Tank again using electric drive, only 3 were ever completed and none saw action. There is only one left in the world in the Kubinka museum in Russia, its huge, the turret weights 55 ton, that same as a complete Tiger 1 Tank!
RDMcG said:
Although Porsche briefly chaired the Tank commission during WW.2 he was not a good administrator and was given a more ceremonial role. Contrary to rumour, he did not design the Tiger tank. A competing design was approved but his chassis design was laterused for a huge mobile gun called the Maus.
Porches Tiger design was used and it was called a Tiger!. Porsche had IIRC about 100 chassis manufactured for his Tiger design. Instead of scrapping them they were used to produce this monster:
The Panzerjäger Tiger (P) otherwise known as the Ferdinand or Elefant.
plasticpig said:
Porches Tiger design was used and it was called a Tiger!. Porsche had IIRC about 100 chassis manufactured for his Tiger design. Instead of scrapping them they were used to produce this monster:
The Panzerjäger Tiger (P) otherwise known as the Ferdinand or Elefant.
I expressed myself poorly..sorry. I was trying to distinguish the more common Henschel Tiger tank from the mobile guns that were built on the Porsche design..The Panzerjäger Tiger (P) otherwise known as the Ferdinand or Elefant.
Here is the Porsche Tiger 1 test mule :
And the commonly known Tiger 1
The Maus in Kubinka was "acquired" by the Russians in 1945 when they overran the factory, rumour has it the Germans sent one out to fight them, but, it broke down!
The Russians acquired all the parts, and yes, this one in the photo was a combo of parts the Russians put together to test run. They thought it a joke, but when they did get it running they were surprised that it performed quite well, its ground pressure only slightly above the 70 ton King Tiger no doubt due to its 1m wide tracks!
I do believe it was Porsche's idea to have them run around in pairs as very few bridges at the time could cope with 188 tons, so at rivers they connected both Tanks up with a long electric umbilical cord and went one at a time Under the river, the one on the bank supplying power to the one in the river!
And the commonly known Tiger 1
The Maus in Kubinka was "acquired" by the Russians in 1945 when they overran the factory, rumour has it the Germans sent one out to fight them, but, it broke down!
The Russians acquired all the parts, and yes, this one in the photo was a combo of parts the Russians put together to test run. They thought it a joke, but when they did get it running they were surprised that it performed quite well, its ground pressure only slightly above the 70 ton King Tiger no doubt due to its 1m wide tracks!
I do believe it was Porsche's idea to have them run around in pairs as very few bridges at the time could cope with 188 tons, so at rivers they connected both Tanks up with a long electric umbilical cord and went one at a time Under the river, the one on the bank supplying power to the one in the river!
Edited by Mark A S on Friday 6th September 16:02
Not sure on whether I'll bid on this one but I've never heard of it before so might have something mised in other books?
http://bit.ly/158kBpJ
http://bit.ly/158kBpJ
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Not sure on whether I'll bid on this one but I've never heard of it before so might have something mised in other books?
http://bit.ly/158kBpJ
Have not come across this one...will check it outhttp://bit.ly/158kBpJ
I just fond out that there is actually a third Porsche Museum near Salzburg which opened in June,funded by one of the family it shows his personal collection ranging from a Lohner-Porsche of 1901 ( never knew on still existed, to a very rare 1938 Beetle.). Well....another thing to do one of these days!
http://fahrtraum.at/de/exponate/
http://fahrtraum.at/de/exponate/
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