whos boss 4.3bv or 500???
Discussion
quote:
i currently own a 350 which is great but i need a griff, i am unsure which is fastest, best to drive and most reliable.....HELP
Generally, the bigger the engine the better, but on the whole I'd say the difference between good and bad examples is far more than the difference between models.
Certainly agree about the variation between specific examples within a model range. Look for long ownership (say 3 years - sort of tries the patience of anyone if its a rogue).
Reading the postings here regularly, there certainly seems to be more "generic" problems with 500's, possibly because of that extra being squeezed out. For example, starter motor failures, cooling problems. This is borne out by our 4L over 6 years of ownership. And of course there is the noise.
As for performance, there is an obvious increase as you go 4, 4.3, 5, (look at the stats) but as has been said here many times, the delivered performance is more to do with the driver skill that the cars abilities and none of them are exactly short of grunt.
Laurie
Reading the postings here regularly, there certainly seems to be more "generic" problems with 500's, possibly because of that extra being squeezed out. For example, starter motor failures, cooling problems. This is borne out by our 4L over 6 years of ownership. And of course there is the noise.
As for performance, there is an obvious increase as you go 4, 4.3, 5, (look at the stats) but as has been said here many times, the delivered performance is more to do with the driver skill that the cars abilities and none of them are exactly short of grunt.
Laurie
Remember that the latest 4.3 is going to be 10 years old now.
Plus there are around 3x as many 500's built vs 4.0/4.3 griffs. Thus maybe more 'problems'
Lot's of things like alternators/starter motors going are generally age related. Both went in my old 4.3 when about six years old. Less griff's were built in the last 3 years, so there is a higher proportion of older L/M/N/P reg cars than R/S reg cars and newer out there.
SO imho if you could find a decent R/S reg it would be the best bet, newer mechanically, pretty much the final spec (mechanically serpentine engine and all that), PAS is a good bet, had the big chunk of depreciation over with.
Probably around £22K. £25- 26K for a pefect one at a dealer.
If buying always go for best condition, service history, a low number of owners (especially with TVR's
indicates someone that has been able to afford to look after it.
For example, The chap that bought my old griff 4.3, has contacted the dealer enquiring, that if I ever sell my 500 (s reg), he would like it!
Moer than willing to pay a bit extra too. Including delaer at trade in. Enquired last year thing about a brand new tamora(not now - redundancy), dealer that supplied the griff offered 22,500(more i think if the sale was definite). Another offered £18k, idiots, even when I told them, thus they lost all credibility.
Plus there are around 3x as many 500's built vs 4.0/4.3 griffs. Thus maybe more 'problems'
Lot's of things like alternators/starter motors going are generally age related. Both went in my old 4.3 when about six years old. Less griff's were built in the last 3 years, so there is a higher proportion of older L/M/N/P reg cars than R/S reg cars and newer out there.
SO imho if you could find a decent R/S reg it would be the best bet, newer mechanically, pretty much the final spec (mechanically serpentine engine and all that), PAS is a good bet, had the big chunk of depreciation over with.
Probably around £22K. £25- 26K for a pefect one at a dealer.
If buying always go for best condition, service history, a low number of owners (especially with TVR's
indicates someone that has been able to afford to look after it.
For example, The chap that bought my old griff 4.3, has contacted the dealer enquiring, that if I ever sell my 500 (s reg), he would like it!
Moer than willing to pay a bit extra too. Including delaer at trade in. Enquired last year thing about a brand new tamora(not now - redundancy), dealer that supplied the griff offered 22,500(more i think if the sale was definite). Another offered £18k, idiots, even when I told them, thus they lost all credibility.
I love this question - probably because is it almost impossible to answer without getting personal. To me it is a bit like asking for a hot curry in an Indian Restaurant. There's no definition of hot, so where do you start.
As an observer, there seem to be more purists with 4.3s and 4s than 500s. 500 drivers clearly enjoy theirs. Interestingly, you don't hear so many 4/4.3 Griff owners talking about "upgrading" to a 500 as you do Chimaera owners. Does that mean they are satisified with the power/torque etc of the smaller engined cars?
A major part of choice comes down to budget. If you only have (only..!) 10k then you'll be looking at older 4/4.3s. If you've more than 20K then you will be looking at later 500s. Somewhere in the middle - then you have a problem.
I reckon just about every owner will tell you to drive as many as you can and then choose. But just as many will admit that they bought the first or second one after driving it..
What has this post told you? Pretty much nothing! Other than go out and try a few and see what you think.
AF
As an observer, there seem to be more purists with 4.3s and 4s than 500s. 500 drivers clearly enjoy theirs. Interestingly, you don't hear so many 4/4.3 Griff owners talking about "upgrading" to a 500 as you do Chimaera owners. Does that mean they are satisified with the power/torque etc of the smaller engined cars?
A major part of choice comes down to budget. If you only have (only..!) 10k then you'll be looking at older 4/4.3s. If you've more than 20K then you will be looking at later 500s. Somewhere in the middle - then you have a problem.
I reckon just about every owner will tell you to drive as many as you can and then choose. But just as many will admit that they bought the first or second one after driving it..
What has this post told you? Pretty much nothing! Other than go out and try a few and see what you think.
AF
This discussion usually boils down to engine. The 500 is actually a BV engine anyway. What is forgotten is the developments in the chassis, suspension and brakes that the 500 has. And the gearbox change, the option of PAS/air con and so on. Look at the car as a total package and a 500 is streets ahead.
I personally think that these are probably just as important if you want to enjoy the cra compared to the engine. Put another way, would you want to drive a car like that with only Escort brakes? Thought not and they can be upgraded but now its the modified vs upgraded argument.
Most owners don't say go for the latest car you can get for nothing.
Anyway as AF says, test a lot and make your own mind up.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
I personally think that these are probably just as important if you want to enjoy the cra compared to the engine. Put another way, would you want to drive a car like that with only Escort brakes? Thought not and they can be upgraded but now its the modified vs upgraded argument.
Most owners don't say go for the latest car you can get for nothing.
Anyway as AF says, test a lot and make your own mind up.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
quote:
1. The 500 is actually a BV engine anyway.
2. What is forgotten is the developments in the chassis, suspension and brakes that the 500 has.
3. And the gearbox change, the option of PAS/air con and so on.
4. Look at the car as a total package and a 500 is streets ahead.
In defense of the 4.x:
1. Over stroked, strangled by Cats, and less responsive.
2. For chassis developments, I presume you mean the addition of a rear roll bar and the odd mounting point. I think the jury's still out on the pro's and con's of a rear roll bar isn't it? Granted a decent set of shocks, bushes and brakes and a geometry check wouldn't go amiss on most 4.x's.
3. The SD1/T5 argument still rages on. So on ... does that include cup holders, cocktail cabinet in the rear of the passenger seat, tartan knee blankets, park place for the mobile ... and do you really need PAS and air con in a lightweight, open top sports car?
4. Streets ahead of what? Here we go again comparing two cars that are as different as chalk and cheese!
A prospective sports car buyer trying to decide between an early or late TVR Griffith has some difficult decisions to make. Simply saying 'the newer the better' or the 500 has a bigger engine does't give a balanced view IMO.
An early pre-cat would be my choice if you want a traditional, fast, raw, noisy, seat-of-the-pants, British sports car (akin to the big Austin-Healey 3000s of the 50s and 60s). It'll smell, throw flames out the back, blow fuses, leak, frighten old ladies and small children, guzzle 4 star or UL, it's a pig to park, BUT it'll give bucket loads of grin factor in return - every journey will be an adventure.
For someone that wants less of the above, simply by parting with more readies they can have the better equipped, more developed, more refined, faster 500, or the 'shopping trolley' version (to quote Steve Heath).
I'll get me coat.
Dave
Deja vu Deja vu... Hi Dave how 're you doing 
Just trying to counter the myth/hype surrounding the 4.xBV that say they are the purest/most perfect version of the Griff.
I don't rate their handling, breaking or build quality compared to a recent 500. Never really have done and when I was looking for my Cerbera replacement, I tried some BVs again and it just reconfirmed it. Yes the engine is different but if that is the main criteria for buying, go with it and most will put up with the fact that the suspension and braking are not as good as a 500.
The mods and tweaks may be small but they are pretty significant.
PS I have not mentioned gearboxes, tarten seat cover, nodding dogs or cup holders...
PPS The Griff 500 is a shopping trolley. If I want to be macho, I have the 520 to play with. Well not right now but when it's rebuild is finished!
Steve
Just trying to counter the myth/hype surrounding the 4.xBV that say they are the purest/most perfect version of the Griff.
I don't rate their handling, breaking or build quality compared to a recent 500. Never really have done and when I was looking for my Cerbera replacement, I tried some BVs again and it just reconfirmed it. Yes the engine is different but if that is the main criteria for buying, go with it and most will put up with the fact that the suspension and braking are not as good as a 500.
The mods and tweaks may be small but they are pretty significant.
PS I have not mentioned gearboxes, tarten seat cover, nodding dogs or cup holders...
PPS The Griff 500 is a shopping trolley. If I want to be macho, I have the 520 to play with. Well not right now but when it's rebuild is finished!
Steve
Sounds like we are turning into classic car nuts! Not sports car drivers.
Like which is the better e-type, just because the car was first does not make it better, except in the eyes of the few who have got the cars and try to hype up prices.
To anyone who is buying, drive good examples of both and see what you prefer. in the e-types case the 'best' drivers car is generally thought to be the series 1 4.2, the purists think the original 3.8, then all the later series diluted the appeal, the looks, performance downgraded.
I had a 4.3 for 5 years, and a 500 from new for 4 years. In my opinion, a late 500 is just a better car to drive and own. (NOT hughly better though) TVR did not make the mistake of changeing the things that matter in the griff (the looks) but gradually improved the drivetrain, components and overal build quality.
Personally I don't like some of the details on the last 100.
Buy the best car you can aford, this does not necessarily mean the newest, but overall condition and signs of caring ownership.
I'm not including cars that have been performance modified (engine/brakes/suspension) in the above. As each will be different.. Standard for the year is generally safer if you think resale.
B
Like which is the better e-type, just because the car was first does not make it better, except in the eyes of the few who have got the cars and try to hype up prices.
To anyone who is buying, drive good examples of both and see what you prefer. in the e-types case the 'best' drivers car is generally thought to be the series 1 4.2, the purists think the original 3.8, then all the later series diluted the appeal, the looks, performance downgraded.
I had a 4.3 for 5 years, and a 500 from new for 4 years. In my opinion, a late 500 is just a better car to drive and own. (NOT hughly better though) TVR did not make the mistake of changeing the things that matter in the griff (the looks) but gradually improved the drivetrain, components and overal build quality.
Personally I don't like some of the details on the last 100.
Buy the best car you can aford, this does not necessarily mean the newest, but overall condition and signs of caring ownership.
I'm not including cars that have been performance modified (engine/brakes/suspension) in the above. As each will be different.. Standard for the year is generally safer if you think resale.
B
Steve, I'm fine. I've been lurking for some time in the various fora reading your 'counters', but with that last one I couldn't resist any longer, rose and took the bait.
Strange, with other marques the purest versions are exhalted and demand much wonga, Ferrari F40 and 911RS for instance, but in TVR land this is not so!
Your TR7 520, that's an awful lot of trouble to go to just to mow the grass! Sorry for that, how's your helmet strap these days.
Good luck to you mate
Dave
quote:
Just trying to counter the myth/hype surrounding the 4.xBV that say they are the purest/most perfect version of the Griff.
Strange, with other marques the purest versions are exhalted and demand much wonga, Ferrari F40 and 911RS for instance, but in TVR land this is not so!
Your TR7 520, that's an awful lot of trouble to go to just to mow the grass! Sorry for that, how's your helmet strap these days.
Good luck to you mate
Dave
well the TR7 mower now has tractor grade UJs...
It is also going the whole hog in terms of boot spoilers, stripped interior, slicks and so on on the grounds that I couldn't do that to as pure a shopping trolley as the Griff 500... and I need to make it faster. The 400 bhp engine is causing premature problems for some reason so the whole car is being upgraded again.
The helmet strap is fine (check your helmet is done up if you don't want to give your fellow Tivvers a heart attack when the helmet flies through the window onto the track when the car goes kerbang into the tyre wall at about 70) and the car is currently having all the bodywork damage I've inflicted on it over the last 18 months repaired.
Steve
Steve
It is also going the whole hog in terms of boot spoilers, stripped interior, slicks and so on on the grounds that I couldn't do that to as pure a shopping trolley as the Griff 500... and I need to make it faster. The 400 bhp engine is causing premature problems for some reason so the whole car is being upgraded again.
The helmet strap is fine (check your helmet is done up if you don't want to give your fellow Tivvers a heart attack when the helmet flies through the window onto the track when the car goes kerbang into the tyre wall at about 70) and the car is currently having all the bodywork damage I've inflicted on it over the last 18 months repaired.
Steve
Steve
I'm also after a Griff and would consider an early BV. However, it will be my budget that determines the outcome. Somehow, I dont seem tempted to the 5ltr even if I had the readies. I reckon the BV though will become a more sought after car in years to come regardless of the tweeks to the 5 becuase of the part it has played in the Griff's history.
A bit sentimental perhpas I know, but the rarity is a piece of kudos which is part of owning a TVR. Anyhow, I need a ride in both as I think that will be the acid test. Any offers?
A bit sentimental perhpas I know, but the rarity is a piece of kudos which is part of owning a TVR. Anyhow, I need a ride in both as I think that will be the acid test. Any offers?
Not totally convinced about that. Yes there is a premium for a BV but not as high as it was and these cars now go for considerably less than a 500. The premium was so much that many plain vanilla Griffi 4.x were converted to so called BV spec either by changing the engine or the badge on the plenum... There are more BV Griffs than were ever produced by the factory!
Many are 4.0 cars that have had engine transplants when the original powerplant died. Are they BV cars or 4.x cars that have been modified? Interestingly, enough most of the 4.x cars that have had transplants go for the 4.xBV engine rather than the 5 or 5.2, partly because of the BV kudos I suspect. If you want power, there is no substitute for cubic inches.
If you want a BV because of the history then fine but be careful what you buy because you could end up buying something that is not what it ought to be. There is no way apart from stripping the engine to confirm if it has a BV engine in practice. All the comments about Ps in the engine number are not conclusive and you need to establish the provenance before shelling out your hard earned. If it is a known car then fine. If not, ask some serious questions about it. Many have been ripped off on the BV search.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Many are 4.0 cars that have had engine transplants when the original powerplant died. Are they BV cars or 4.x cars that have been modified? Interestingly, enough most of the 4.x cars that have had transplants go for the 4.xBV engine rather than the 5 or 5.2, partly because of the BV kudos I suspect. If you want power, there is no substitute for cubic inches.
If you want a BV because of the history then fine but be careful what you buy because you could end up buying something that is not what it ought to be. There is no way apart from stripping the engine to confirm if it has a BV engine in practice. All the comments about Ps in the engine number are not conclusive and you need to establish the provenance before shelling out your hard earned. If it is a known car then fine. If not, ask some serious questions about it. Many have been ripped off on the BV search.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
I had the opportunity to run a 4.0ltr pre-cat and 5.0ltr back to back, the 4 being mine for several years and the 5 being the wifes. There came a time when we decided that two Griffs wasn't practical and needed a sensible car. So, the time came when one Griff had to go, not easy as you can imagine. I loved the 4, the way it felt more planted, the lack of PAS, the lower, more snug seats, it seemed to corner flatter instead of on tippy-toes, they both ran S02'2. The 5 had a sports exhaust and was in slightly better nick due to it's age, same miles mind, but the 4 still sounded better.
I would agree with all of the above re brakes performance etc, maybe even handling, but I swear I could drive the 4 down a lane quicker than the 5, it felt less vague and because of it having less torque I found it easier to accellerate hard out of bends. The 5 was much faster top end, but again, how often do you go over 140?
It's hard to explain, but I just prefered the 4 to drive, listen to, sit in etc. The wife wasn't so convinced as she felt the same about the 5 as I about the 4 so a compromise was reached and we got a Scooby 5dr turbo to replace her 5 as all was well. The wife has now got used to the 4 and absolutely loves it, she now thinks it is better than her old 5!!
We just find it more exciting to drive, yet it is slower in a straight line.
Drive 'em and try 'em, see what you think.
I would agree with all of the above re brakes performance etc, maybe even handling, but I swear I could drive the 4 down a lane quicker than the 5, it felt less vague and because of it having less torque I found it easier to accellerate hard out of bends. The 5 was much faster top end, but again, how often do you go over 140?
It's hard to explain, but I just prefered the 4 to drive, listen to, sit in etc. The wife wasn't so convinced as she felt the same about the 5 as I about the 4 so a compromise was reached and we got a Scooby 5dr turbo to replace her 5 as all was well. The wife has now got used to the 4 and absolutely loves it, she now thinks it is better than her old 5!!
We just find it more exciting to drive, yet it is slower in a straight line.
Drive 'em and try 'em, see what you think.
While visiting Kerridges the workshop manager let me speak to the manager of TVR power who worked on the engine line at the time of the 4.3's and he confirmed that mine was an original with my engine & chassis numbers, if youve got doubt as to originality maybe a phone call to them will end any speculation?
quote:
While visiting Kerridges the workshop manager let me speak to the manager of TVR power who worked on the engine line at the time of the 4.3's and he confirmed that mine was an original with my engine & chassis numbers, if youve got doubt as to originality maybe a phone call to them will end any speculation?
Heliox,
Have you sold it yet ?
Cheers
Mark
PS - Must say the chassis looks in A1 condition.
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